The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Coin styles (12 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Michael Rubinstein
View Profile
V.I.P.
3605 Posts

Profile of Michael Rubinstein
There are many beautiful and unique coin styles in coin magic. Do you learn and utilize these styles, running the risk of imitating the originator, use parts of those styles here and there to vary your magic, or stick to a classic style that you can make your own? Discuss.
NEW MANUSCRIPT - TWILIGHT ZONE WILD COIN. All New!! As seen on Penn and Teller Fool Us! PM for details!
Rattle purse 2.0 now available! PM me for details!
New FOUR hour Penguin Live lecture TWO with 23 NEW routines, available for download at: http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/7338
Penguin Live lecture One is THREE hours long, and contains 18 coin effects! Available as a dvd or download from Penguin at http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/5960
New York Coin Magic Seminar dvd series available for download at: https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magic/magic-dvds/new-york-coin-magic-seminar-downloads/
NEW!! At The Table 2 hour lecture download OR DVD containing 11 routines, including THREE never taught before! Download and dvd avaliable at http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S22380 or http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S22833
funsway
View Profile
Inner circle
old things in new ways - new things in old ways
8309 Posts

Profile of funsway
Not sure it is a "style" but I prefer to take classic theme and device a new way of doing it for setting, story, coin type/gimmick, etc.
More than "making it my own," I strive to increase the "must be magic" result though new sleights, acquitments and combinations of psychological ploys.

I do study the work of others to make sure I am not "re-inventing the wheel" rather than inspiration.
Not implying "better than" - just "different from" as a style with originality its own reward.

With my disabilities I usually can't do a routine :"as written" anyway. For example, I use your rattle purse but none of the suggested routines.

If I performed for pay It might be different Smile
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



ShareBooks at www.eversway.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
The Gold Coin
View Profile
New user
60 Posts

Profile of The Gold Coin
As a relative newcomer to magic, when I start learning a new routine, I tend to stick with the author's style so I can focus on technical mastery first. I also think it's important to learn the author's style, because you get another perspective on how magic could be performed. Once I've mastered the author's style, then I'll start to make small changes. Usually the changes are technical optimizations, or switching a finger busting move for one that is less so. I don't think I've started to weave a consistent style through the various routines that I know.

I've never been a fan of magic as a supernatural power, so I gravitate more towards presentations or patter that treat it as something surprising, even to the magician. Harbottle's Misbehavin, and the doc's Fuzzy Math come to mind as examples. Eric Jones has another style I like, where he approaches the spectator and offers "something cool to show you." The "trick" isn't even presented as magic.

I want the spectator(s) to walk away challenging their assumptions, and questioning what they see rather than taking it at face value (this is similar to Pen and Teller's comments on the point of magic). That's why I love to watch card magic. I barely know anything about card magic, so almost every time I see a trick, I have assumptions to challenge.
gallagher
View Profile
Inner circle
1007 Posts

Profile of gallagher
After performing,
especially for other Magicians,
I'm often asked:
"Are you Marion Boykin?"

"Marion who?",..I respond.
.... 😋
Actually, for the longest time,
I was HAPPY to get thru the effects(!),..
with no-one getting injured!

What I mean is:
Pulling the effect off,,..
somewhat 'magically'.
No 'style' at all.
,..i guess, THAT was my 'style'(!).

The last year or two, however,
I've been using 'effects',
in specific situations,
..that I'm creating.
No longer: 'Let-me-show-you-a-trick' situations.

Because these situation are 'mine',
I 'believe',...'MY' style is developing.

{i'm now hearing the name 'elmer fudd' being thrown around a bit more often.... 😕}
Still trying,
gallagher
Jonathan Townsend
View Profile
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
26852 Posts

Profile of Jonathan Townsend
Some of the twitchy or dancer style comes more from method than character. I picked something that requires less social distance and try to keep that as guide for how the tricks move.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Michael Rubinstein
View Profile
V.I.P.
3605 Posts

Profile of Michael Rubinstein
I have always used a classic retention style. It is my style, but fits with most routines because it is based on classic technique. There are many good unique styles in coin magic today. Harbottle's edge grip, Bertini's pinky technique, Godon's rear thumb palm techniques, etc.
The problem with adopting a unique style is that you end up mimicking the performer. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't learn these techniques and find a place where it can be used. It just means that a unique style probably shouldn't be used all the time, unless it really fits you.
NEW MANUSCRIPT - TWILIGHT ZONE WILD COIN. All New!! As seen on Penn and Teller Fool Us! PM for details!
Rattle purse 2.0 now available! PM me for details!
New FOUR hour Penguin Live lecture TWO with 23 NEW routines, available for download at: http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/7338
Penguin Live lecture One is THREE hours long, and contains 18 coin effects! Available as a dvd or download from Penguin at http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/5960
New York Coin Magic Seminar dvd series available for download at: https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magic/magic-dvds/new-york-coin-magic-seminar-downloads/
NEW!! At The Table 2 hour lecture download OR DVD containing 11 routines, including THREE never taught before! Download and dvd avaliable at http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S22380 or http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S22833
FlightRisk
View Profile
Loyal user
North Carolina
268 Posts

Profile of FlightRisk
For "styles", I tend to think of classic style vs. street style (for want of better terms). The older magicians entertained in a top hat and tails and younger magicians, well, apparently sleep in their clothes Smile Likewise, I see the old school "natural" movements contrasted with the "hand ballet" movements of street style that are exaggerated and a trick unto themselves. The former is about storytelling and performing an effect with the sleights to support a whole routine, while the latter is more eye candy making things vanish and reappear. To me, classic happens with your mind, while street happens with your eyes. They are both great and can even be combined in routines like a Matrix or 3-Fly.

So distilling: Michael Rubenstein vs. Ponta The Smith. I like the more natural classic style and reserve the crazy sleights more for a flourish. Besides, some of our sleights are hard enough as it is, the muscle pass and that thing where Ponta does a one coin flourish and shoots the coin backwards to the other hand under cover as the arms cross hands at each elbow would take me the next 3 years to master.

Thanks for starting this thread, Michael. Interesting discussion.
Mb217
View Profile
Inner circle
8344 Posts

Profile of Mb217
Yes Flighty, this is an interesting discussion alright, and it is really makes me think of an old one, sorta like whose better, Frank Sinatra or Michael Jackson...depends on who you ask or who tells you whose best and why. Smile

As I perhaps veer a bit off course a bit...I actually think it's all apart of the same thing and won't clearly be realized until higher perspectives are attained. Progress is like that, oftentimes not easily discerned. Yet progress drags things forward, sometimes reluctantly but they will move and balance out the new with the old. Personally, I appreciate both, the old and the new. In most cases, what's new is something old just used in a different way, sometimes going 20-30 miles faster as per new thinking or new people thinking into this thing. I like all these new jacks, the more classical ones like Harbottle and or a real stylists like Ponta The Smith. His DVD "SICK" some years back charged another giant wave of magicians with enthusiasm for coin magic. The routines were old but the approach had new fertilizer in it. And so, via the great magic of the internet, things grew larger than they ever have before, and I believe even more will emerge from it as we keep moving forward. It's fun to learn from it all and to maybe adjust a bit for yourself in it all. I've happily learned a lot from others but mostly do me when I do magic, the "me" that grew out of all I experienced on my journey. Smile

I like to look at the "Latest & Greatest" forum, so much good thinking there that relentlessly keeps pushing the envelope. Admittedly, there's a lot straw but ever so often there is gold found within it. Smile And so many things can sponsor "newness." It's not necessarily just about moves or sleights or routines, but also about personality and presentation...and of course, abounding creativity. I never look at who or what's the best this & that, I just keep hoping that it just keeps churning things excitedly forward so that the new can appear from the old, so that we can keep looking for and finding the things we haven't found yet, better ways of doing whatever we've been doing whether it's cars or the stars...that's the real magic of all of this, the real magic of everything, IMHO. Smile

So, as we are all brothers at the core (whether we act that way or not), the old & the new, the same & the different are all one just different moments in time and growth. And of course, preference is usually what you season to your taste in your time for your reasons as per the mind you've been given, or something like that.

Yep, good discussion, Doc. Smile


*Oh, and thanks gallagher for those good words here, really made me smile. Smile
*Check out my latest: MBs Morgan w/ BONUS: Destiny, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at www.VinnyMarini.com Smile

"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb Smile
Stephon Johnson
View Profile
Elite user
Arkansas (WooPigSooie!)
429 Posts

Profile of Stephon Johnson
Great subject! We all run the danger of "morphing" into the style of great teaching or great performance! It all comes down to whether or not we personally KNOW who we are, our performing Character, and what feels comfortable.
I think EVERYONE on this forum will agree that we buy WAY WAY more things that is going to be YOUR GREAT NEW ROUTINE and ends up in a drawer, because it doesn't fit your style.
As a Coin Magic addict, I will analyze and study EVERYTHING I see; and try anything/everything I can pick-up in my arsenal!
But everything I try out, I filter things through my Character, personal style, angles, etc...THEN I will see if I can mould it into MY STYLE.

I'm 56 at this point, and THAT will be filtered too...I'm just saying TIME is precious! At this point of my life, I'd rather be performing and perfecting what I've been learning for 40 years. If I add something...it has to relate to my style and ability.

You guys mention "hand ballet" stuff: I personally do not like Coin "Juggling" Magic (It's pretty and elegant, but anyone watching knows that the Coin(s) are being deftly kept hidden behind the unnatural vogue hand gestures). So, I am NOT going to adapt that kind of style. For My Style, I'd look pretty silly trying to doing that!

Look forward to future discussion!
Blessings,
Steph
WHAT IF you wake up tomorrow with only the things that you thank God for today?
Michael Rubinstein
View Profile
V.I.P.
3605 Posts

Profile of Michael Rubinstein
One of my peeves that I have in coin magic, is the urge to follow trends and styles. When Three Fly came out, all of a sudden everyone wanted morgans. You still see this whether the coin is the right size for the hand or not. And when Ponta came out with his dvd, all of a sudden everyone wanted to be Ponta, and do all of the acrobatic moves. Now I happen to think Ponta is a very talented coin worker, and I marvel at some of the things he can do. But a lot of it is definitely not for everyone, yet everyone wanted to do it because it was the newest thing. You would read on the Café beginners bragging they can do Ponta's this or that because it was new and difficult. It was like bragging rights. In my day, it was doing things like the deep back clip. No thought as to angles or naturalness, just they had to do it.
Over the years I have come to realize that difficult is not necessarily better. And many of the styles out today are more difficult, and maybe not practical for some. Other moves are good for here and there, but without imitating the creator. Because what is natural and fits the creator may not work for you.
NEW MANUSCRIPT - TWILIGHT ZONE WILD COIN. All New!! As seen on Penn and Teller Fool Us! PM for details!
Rattle purse 2.0 now available! PM me for details!
New FOUR hour Penguin Live lecture TWO with 23 NEW routines, available for download at: http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/7338
Penguin Live lecture One is THREE hours long, and contains 18 coin effects! Available as a dvd or download from Penguin at http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/5960
New York Coin Magic Seminar dvd series available for download at: https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magic/magic-dvds/new-york-coin-magic-seminar-downloads/
NEW!! At The Table 2 hour lecture download OR DVD containing 11 routines, including THREE never taught before! Download and dvd avaliable at http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S22380 or http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S22833
Stephon Johnson
View Profile
Elite user
Arkansas (WooPigSooie!)
429 Posts

Profile of Stephon Johnson
You perfectly distilled all those thoughts; "what is natural and fits the creator". That may be the ultimate trick! (no pun)

We all start out learning "Do As I Do" and you emulate your mentors, teachers and heroes. At some point, I guess you start to get your own "voice" and style. The best example I can think that is when I attended a Hank Moorehouse lecture in the 80s and bought one of his packet tricks. I remember performing it, HIS patter, HIS voice, HIS accent...(being maybe 20 years old it was cringe-worthy BAD!). But, in the hands of the creator it was NATURAL and perfect; so I couldn't reimagine perfection for my own style!

Fortunately as you mention; we come to realize things with years (Thank God!). Everything I perform now, I actually take great enjoy and pride in discovering and crafting my own applications. Sure, I don't reinvent the wheel. I learn things from others, take some parts, eliminate other parts, use a different move, but I work on MY ANGLE. This creative process MAKES IT your naturalness!

Perfect Perspective Dr. Rubinstein!
Thank You,
Steph
WHAT IF you wake up tomorrow with only the things that you thank God for today?
FlightRisk
View Profile
Loyal user
North Carolina
268 Posts

Profile of FlightRisk
I can't think of the expression, but it may be something like "a means to an end". You can spend months working on a deep back clip or a Ponta move, but then what? It seems backwards. You want to create a certain effect and then find the best way that works for you to accomplish it. You may go your entire career never using anything but a few sleights! I remember learning sleight after sleight. I kept learning new moves but never learned more than a few effects and never an entire routine! My audience was my mirror and my 1980s camcorder (that was a huge shoulder held camera and an over the shoulder VCR pack that detached from a tuner portion). I was so busy learning component parts, I never put it together into art. I let magic take the back burner for a while and when I came back to it, I realized the goal was to create something for a spectator, and that was all about the performance.
Ray Haining
View Profile
Inner circle
Hot Springs, AR
1667 Posts

Profile of Ray Haining
Also, "evolution" is not necessarily "progress."
Michael Rubinstein
View Profile
V.I.P.
3605 Posts

Profile of Michael Rubinstein
Correct.I might even expand that to say, Evolution is not necessarily progress, while progress is definitely evolution. And sometimes, evolution complicates, rather than simplifies.
NEW MANUSCRIPT - TWILIGHT ZONE WILD COIN. All New!! As seen on Penn and Teller Fool Us! PM for details!
Rattle purse 2.0 now available! PM me for details!
New FOUR hour Penguin Live lecture TWO with 23 NEW routines, available for download at: http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/7338
Penguin Live lecture One is THREE hours long, and contains 18 coin effects! Available as a dvd or download from Penguin at http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/5960
New York Coin Magic Seminar dvd series available for download at: https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magic/magic-dvds/new-york-coin-magic-seminar-downloads/
NEW!! At The Table 2 hour lecture download OR DVD containing 11 routines, including THREE never taught before! Download and dvd avaliable at http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S22380 or http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S22833
The Gold Coin
View Profile
New user
60 Posts

Profile of The Gold Coin
Are trends necessarily a negative thing? The doc mentioned 3 fly proliferating, but look how many different routines we have to choose from now because of that. There are knuckle busting versions like Another Flipping 3 Fly (Harbottle), more approachable versions like 3 Fly 3 (Daryl), and completely different twists on the same idea (international 3 fly?). Isn't the reason we have so many choices that for a period everyone was interested in the trick?

And for what it's worth, that period of intense interest will almost always end. The folks who keep doing material that was trending might have tried it out just because it was a trend, but then decided to make it their own. And they get the benefit of seeing so many different examples to create their own take from. IMO that's at least one good thing to come out of it.

My industry (not magic) does a similar thing, in that trends are a *really* big deal. A reasonable chunk of the community goes from one technology to the next like an unthinking thundering herd, often gaining little from these expensive moves. But sometimes we end up getting incredibly useful things from those excursions, like a new approach to an old problem, or a way to obviate a problem entirely. So as much as I rail against that bandwagon mentality because of the cost and headaches, I have to conclude that as an industry we are getting *some* value from it. (To be fair, I still don't like it. And I don't want to get on the wagon either.)
funsway
View Profile
Inner circle
old things in new ways - new things in old ways
8309 Posts

Profile of funsway
Been thinking about "style" (thank doc) and realize how much I use the "tour guide" approach with me as astonished as the audience.
I will pretend that audience feedback led be to this, but I am not sure of the motivation or comfort level adjustment rational.
I do not perform enough before various audience to suggest this to others, but ...

I would be curious as to how many others prefer to allow magic to be the hero rather than themselves. Guess this can be "style."
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



ShareBooks at www.eversway.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
st3v13
View Profile
New user
53 Posts

Profile of st3v13
This is the principle being advertising right? The "trendy" thing is what sells and in the end that is the objective for creating the "latest and greatest".

With that said, I mirror a combination of a lot of similar opinions here.

Some of the "latest and greatest" doesn't "feel right" for me, but it does get the creative juices rolling. My favorite projects are the ones that equip me to come up with my own sets. Doc's lectures are among my favorite because he shows his routine, explains the tools to achieve, and then I'm open to use it the way that fits me and the audience I may perform to.

Also, I feel like the magic should cater to the attention of the audience right. I love practicing holding out 9854368299 coins, but most people I perform for prefer simple magic happening in their hands. Even if I could pull off holding out so many coins, my audience isn't entertained so it wouldn't be part of my "style". (or maybe I need to practice it until it does)
Al Schneider
View Profile
V.I.P.
A corn field in WI surrounded by
997 Posts

Profile of Al Schneider
In general I attempt to be like a science teacher demonstrating some phenomena to a class.

In that vain, clarity is extremely important.

I do not care from where the material came from. The goal is to show magic phenomena to the person standing in front of me.

I will use any gimmick, move, or subterfuge to accomplish that end.
Also I will use any legal patter or ideas from any other performers.
I use Don Alan's word for word patter with the blank deck. It can't be better.

I also respect the intelligence of the observer.

Some rules of behavior are.

Don't blab a lot without reason.

Don't do magic juggling. (Just because they can't see the coin doesn't mean it isn't there.)

Don't drop your hands out of the frame of performance during the routine.

Any move is developed specifically for a specific routine. (I don't look for a rouitne to use a move in.)
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
funsway
View Profile
Inner circle
old things in new ways - new things in old ways
8309 Posts

Profile of funsway
"In that vain, clarity is extremely important."

If this spelling shift is deliberate, the humor is subtle and has a hint of subterfuge.

If accidental it has a hint of serendipitous mischief.

Regardless an appreciated description of style appraisal.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



ShareBooks at www.eversway.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Coin styles (12 Likes)
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2019 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.27 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL