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JoeJoe
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On Apr 27, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Yes. Yes it does. When you run beef through a grinder, which I have done for many years, it comes out a certain texture, consistency, etc ., which is what vegetarians try to get their veggies to resemble. Why? Because they love hamburgers.
Same reason your friend made veggie tuna and put it on a sandwich- to imitate ground tuna.


And incidentally ... not all beef has the same texture and consistency, many suppliers add fillers and additives to improve the texture and consistency, so even meat-eaters want "better" food. And if it was sold in a grocery store, it is sprayed with chemicals like ammonia and there is no legal obligation to list these chemicals on the labels.

The whole "I ate from uncle marvin's chicken soup" argument does not have any merit, corporations own farms now and they no longer operate the way you describe. In the last twenty-years, everything has changed. See previously posted "glass walls" video.

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magicfish
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On Apr 27, 2019, JoeJoe wrote:
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On Apr 27, 2019, ed rhodes wrote:
However, I was NOT born into that society, so the point is moot. Fair enough though, I will rephrase the question; Why does there seem to be a major industry in the vegan culture, making patties that look like hamburgers or sausage, and telling us "you won't be able to tell the difference!"? If we handed you a spiced, seasoned, smoked burger and said; "You won't be able to tell it's not vegan!" You wouldn't buy it for a moment.


The only company making the claim that "you can't tell the difference" is the Impossible Burger brand; every other brand strives to make their burger have it's own unique taste and flavor knowing that the most popular options now will corner the market and become the most popular options in the future.

And their motivation is not to trick you into thinking you are eating animal, but to create a better product that will deliver the same taste without the devastating environmental, health, and emotional consequences that comes with the meat industry.

-JoeJoe

Deliver the same taste? Interesting.
magicfish
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Quote:
On Apr 27, 2019, JoeJoe wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 27, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Yes. Yes it does. When you run beef through a grinder, which I have done for many years, it comes out a certain texture, consistency, etc ., which is what vegetarians try to get their veggies to resemble. Why? Because they love hamburgers.
Same reason your friend made veggie tuna and put it on a sandwich- to imitate ground tuna.


And incidentally ... not all beef has the same texture and consistency, many suppliers add fillers and additives to improve the texture and consistency, so even meat-eaters want "better" food. And if it was sold in a grocery store, it is sprayed with chemicals like ammonia and there is no legal obligation to list these chemicals on the labels.

The whole "I ate from uncle marvin's chicken soup" argument does not have any merit, corporations own farms now and they no longer operate the way you describe. In the last twenty-years, everything has changed. See previously posted "glass walls" video.

-JoeJoe

Incorrect. Fresh ground beef is fresh ground beef. It is illegal to add anything without it being on the label.
JoeJoe
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On Apr 27, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Incorrect. Fresh ground beef is fresh ground beef. It is illegal to add anything without it being on the label.


Nope - you were lied to.

Both the U.S. Department of Agriculture and the U.S. Food and Drug Administration have decided that ammonia is not an additive, but a processing aid so there is no legal obligation to list it as an ingredient, so beef treated with ammonia is still sold as "one-hundred percent beef".

They also use gases in the packaging to keep meat "red" even past it's expiration date, and again the gases are not required to be labeled because they are not actually "added" to the meat.

https://www.foodsafetynews.com/2012/04/s......or-lftb/

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magicfish
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On Apr 27, 2019, JoeJoe wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 27, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Incorrect. Fresh ground beef is fresh ground beef. It is illegal to add anything without it being on the label.


Nope - you were lied to.

Both the U.S. Department of Agriculture and the U.S. Food and Drug Administration have decided that ammonia is not an additive, but a processing aid so there is no legal obligation to list it as an ingredient, so beef treated with ammonia is still sold as "one-hundred percent beef".

They also use gases in the packaging to keep meat "red" even past it's expiration date, and again the gases are not required to be labeled because they are not actually "added" to the meat.

https://www.foodsafetynews.com/2012/04/s......or-lftb/

-JoeJoe

Why would I lie to myself? I made ground beef for a living for nearly a decade. Nothing can be added to fresh ground beef trim. Even beef roasts that are not selling cannot be brought in from the counter and ground with fresh trim. You however, are lying to your self. Gas? Processing? Ammonia? No. Trim goes into a grinder and a foot pedal draws it out onto a styrofoam tray as ground beef. No additives, no preservatives. No spices, no salt, no seasonings. Nothing. Take a steak off a cow, run it through a grinder, and you have ground beef. Period.
A fresh beet is a fresh beet, but I'm willing to bet I could find beets in a package with a bunch of crisp added yo it and provide you a link. So what?
JoeJoe
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On Apr 27, 2019, magicfish wrote:
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The only company making the claim that "you can't tell the difference" is the Impossible Burger brand; every other brand strives to make their burger have it's own unique taste and flavor knowing that the most popular options now will corner the market and become the most popular options in the future.

And their motivation is not to trick you into thinking you are eating animal, but to create a better product that will deliver the same taste without the devastating environmental, health, and emotional consequences that comes with the meat industry.

-JoeJoe

Deliver the same taste? Interesting.


"Their motivation" being the Impossible Burger company. They want their product to taste like beef, I understand their logic but it is not something I or most established vegans would want to eat.

My personal favorite veggie burger is Sunshine Burger's "garden herb" ... only five ingredients: rice, sunflower seeds, carrots, chives, and sea salt. I have a DIY version that uses cheaper peanut butter instead of expensive sunflower seed butter. It doesn't taste like "beef" at all, much sweeter.

https://www.sunshineburger.com/products/garden-herb/

-JoeJoe
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JoeJoe
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On Apr 27, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Gas? Processing? Ammonia? No. Trim goes into a grinder and a foot pedal draws it out onto a styrofoam tray as ground beef. No additives, no preservatives. No spices, no salt, no seasonings. Nothing.


Not anymore. Most of the beef sold today is sprayed with ammonium-hydroxide to kill germs and bacteria, and there are no labeling requirements. The family farm barely exists these days.

-JoeJoe
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Mike Gainor
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Https://www.foodsafetynews.com/2012/04/s......or-lftb/

The comments on this link are interesting.

Quote:
On Apr 27, 2019, magicfish wrote: Why would I lie to myself? I made ground beef for a living for nearly a decade. Nothing can be added to fresh ground beef trim. Even beef roasts that are not selling cannot be brought in from the counter and ground with fresh trim. You however, are lying to your self. Gas? Processing? Ammonia? No. Trim goes into a grinder and a foot pedal draws it out onto a styrofoam tray as ground beef. No additives, no preservatives. No spices, no salt, no seasonings. Nothing. Take a steak off a cow, run it through a grinder, and you have ground beef. Period.
A fresh beet is a fresh beet, but I'm willing to bet I could find beets in a package with a bunch of crisp added yo it and provide you a link. So what?


I believe the link/article is talking about large processing plants and not the local (fresh) markets. Frozen beef and such...
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Mike Gainor
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Quote:
On Apr 27, 2019, JoeJoe wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 27, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Gas? Processing? Ammonia? No. Trim goes into a grinder and a foot pedal draws it out onto a styrofoam tray as ground beef. No additives, no preservatives. No spices, no salt, no seasonings. Nothing.


Not anymore. Most of the beef sold today is sprayed with ammonium-hydroxide to kill germs and bacteria, and there are no labeling requirements. The family farm barely exists these days.

-JoeJoe


Better than getting E Coli. According to the link and comments a lot of products contain ammonia as well:
Bread - 440ppm
Beef - 200ppm
Typical condiment (ketchup) - 400ppm
Cheese - 800ppm
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JoeJoe
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On Apr 27, 2019, Mike Gainor wrote:
Better than getting E Coli


Yes, I agree. In fact, I posted the same statement years ago when I was a meat-eater. That of course was before I got sick from crohn's disease.

That experience made me revise my logic: better to eat food that does not contain e coli in the first place so I do not need to spray toxins on my food. This goes back to "clean animals" verses "unclean animals"; clean animals are vegans and unclean animals eat flesh.

Here at the beach, unclean animals like cats contaminate our beach water with their poop because their poop contains harmful bacterias that drain into the ocean when it rains. While clean animals like horses can poop all over the beach and do not contaminate the water because they are vegans and their poop does not contain parasites.

On the video I posted where the lady questioned why we consider it okay to eat some animals and not others?? Virtually all of the meat in your grocery store is considered "clean". So even if you are not vegan, the animals you eat are. In general, man does not eat "unclean animals" such as dogs and cats.

I also don't consider all plants to be "clean" ... lettuce is famous for becoming contaminated with bacteria so I avoid eating lettuce. I prefer tomatoes from my vine, because the ones at the grocery store have been felt up by I don't know how many other people.

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magicfish
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On Apr 27, 2019, JoeJoe wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 27, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Gas? Processing? Ammonia? No. Trim goes into a grinder and a foot pedal draws it out onto a styrofoam tray as ground beef. No additives, no preservatives. No spices, no salt, no seasonings. Nothing.


Not anymore. Most of the beef sold today is sprayed with ammonium-hydroxide to kill germs and bacteria, and there are no labeling requirements. The family farm barely exists these days.

-JoeJoe

Incorrect. Go visit your local butcher shop.
Watch him grind the beef.
magicfish
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On Apr 27, 2019, Mike Gainor wrote:
Https://www.foodsafetynews.com/2012/04/s......or-lftb/

The comments on this link are interesting.

Quote:
On Apr 27, 2019, magicfish wrote: Why would I lie to myself? I made ground beef for a living for nearly a decade. Nothing can be added to fresh ground beef trim. Even beef roasts that are not selling cannot be brought in from the counter and ground with fresh trim. You however, are lying to your self. Gas? Processing? Ammonia? No. Trim goes into a grinder and a foot pedal draws it out onto a styrofoam tray as ground beef. No additives, no preservatives. No spices, no salt, no seasonings. Nothing. Take a steak off a cow, run it through a grinder, and you have ground beef. Period.
A fresh beet is a fresh beet, but I'm willing to bet I could find beets in a package with a bunch of crisp added yo it and provide you a link. So what?


I believe the link/article is talking about large processing plants and not the local (fresh) markets. Frozen beef and such...

Exactly.
magicfish
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Joe joe wrote, "clean animals" verses "unclean animals"; clean animals are vegans and unclean animals eat flesh."
This, of course is lunacy based on propaganda. Nature is balanced. From the paramecium to the Lion. Who do you think you are judging animals that have evolved to subsist on things other than organic kale smoothies. When you die you will be consumed and your shell will return to the ecosystem thanks to mother nature's "unclean" animals.
Mike Gainor
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On Apr 27, 2019, JoeJoe wrote:

Yes, I agree. In fact, I posted the same statement years ago when I was a meat-eater. That of course was before I got sick from crohn's disease.


Didn't they have an outbreak of E Coli in spinach awhile back?


Quote:
On Apr 27, 2019, JoeJoe wrote:... This goes back to "clean animals" verses "unclean animals"; clean animals are vegans and unclean animals eat flesh.

Here at the beach, unclean animals like cats contaminate our beach water with their poop because their poop contains harmful bacterias that drain into the ocean when it rains. While clean animals like horses can poop all over the beach and do not contaminate the water because they are vegans and their poop does not contain parasites.


You and animals can get parasites from water as well. With that logic you could say we should clean open wounds with urine; being that it is sterile. (the difference between sterile and a sterilizing agent)

Quote:
On Apr 27, 2019, JoeJoe wrote:... On the video I posted where the lady questioned why we consider it okay to eat some animals and not others?? Virtually all of the meat in your grocery store is considered "clean". So even if you are not vegan, the animals you eat are. In general, man does not eat "unclean animals" such as dogs and cats.


Can't speak for everyone but for me I don't eat predator mammals. (some cultures do eat cats & dogs)

Quote:
On Apr 27, 2019, JoeJoe wrote:...I also don't consider all plants to be "clean" ... lettuce is famous for becoming contaminated with bacteria so I avoid eating lettuce. I prefer tomatoes from my vine, because the ones at the grocery store have been felt up by I don't know how many other people.

-JoeJoe


Being self reliant is always a good thing. I believe in most cases of 'food poisoning' people are getting sick from improper handling (not washing their hands after trips to the bathroom) of the food as it is prepared.
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JoeJoe
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On Apr 27, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Incorrect. Go visit your local butcher shop.
Watch him grind the beef.


I don't think Burger King allows that. Nor does walmart.



Quote:
Quote:
I believe the link/article is talking about large processing plants and not the local (fresh) markets. Frozen beef and such...

Exactly.


So if you are agreeing with us, then why are you arguing with me?? I never said you couldn't buy meat that hasn't been sprayed with ammonia at your butcher shop, I said most meat sold today has been processed with chemicals and gases. I'm talking about places like Burger King and Walmart.

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On Apr 27, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Joe joe wrote, "clean animals" verses "unclean animals"; clean animals are vegans and unclean animals eat flesh."
This, of course is lunacy based on propaganda. Nature is balanced. From the paramecium to the Lion. Who do you think you are judging animals that have evolved to subsist on things other than organic kale smoothies. When you die you will be consumed and your shell will return to the ecosystem thanks to mother nature's "unclean" animals.


I am not judging any animals - I never said a lion shouldn't be eating animals.

I am saying a lion should eat what a lion was designed to eat, and a human should eat what a human was designed to eat.

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magicfish
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I agree. Now I'm going to use my front facing, binocular vision to track down my prey, my incisors to tear its flesh, and my molars to grind my side dish of plant matter.
JoeJoe
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On Apr 27, 2019, Mike Gainor wrote:
Didn't they have an outbreak of E Coli in spinach awhile back?


Yes, which is why I don't eat spinach unless I grow it myself in my garden because I know my spinach is clean. I avoid store-bought greens in general.



Quote:
You and animals can get parasites from water as well. With that logic


That doesn't change my logic. You shouldn't want to drink water from a potentially contaminated water source any more than you would want to eat food from a potentially contaminated food source. Many cats only drink from streams of moving water, because they know still waters can harbor parasites.

One of the strangest habits I think humans have is pooping in their water; I can't think of any other creature that does that (except maybe "fish" of course).



Quote:
Being self reliant is always a good thing. I believe in most cases of 'food poisoning' people are getting sick from improper handling (not washing their hands after trips to the bathroom) of the food as it is prepared.


Yes - like when cutting boards getting contaminated when people cut raw meat and then cut vegetables (contaminating the cutting board with uncooked meat). So if you don't have raw meat in your kitchen in the first place, you don't have to worry about contaminating your vegetables. Simplicity. Smile



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Dannydoyle
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JoeJoe everyone is sad you have Crohn's disease. You keep INSISTING it is because you ate meat.

According to the Mayo Clinic that is NOT THE CAUSE! https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-cond......20353304

"The exact cause of Crohn's disease remains unknown. Previously, diet and stress were suspected, but now doctors know that these factors may aggravate but don't cause Crohn's disease. A number of factors, such as heredity and a malfunctioning immune system, likely play a role in its development.

Immune system. It's possible that a virus or bacterium may trigger Crohn's disease. When your immune system tries to fight off the invading microorganism, an abnormal immune response causes the immune system to attack the cells in the digestive tract, too.
Heredity. Crohn's is more common in people who have family members with the disease, so genes may play a role in making people more susceptible. However, most people with Crohn's disease don't have a family history of the disease."

Yes it might be aggravated by a diet of whatever. But CLEARLY it is not a cause. So your religious conversion to vegan is simply based on a lie YOU have either been told or made up for yourself.

I get it. You have your "truth" and you may not believe it but I respect it. I really do. I admire your commitment to the "truth" you have. But where you get REALLY annoying is your constant need to proselytize this false truth. The idea that your "truth" is somehow the way the world needs to bend is simply ludicrous. You do this with EVERY position you take and it is ridiculous.
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landmark
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I believe the link/article is talking about large processing plants and not the local (fresh) markets. Frozen beef and such..


I believe magicfish and JoeJoe live in different countries. Probably not productive to talk as if there were no differences between the two countries' regulations.
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