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imgic
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On Dec 14, 2020, tommy wrote:
I know a family who were all very obese who went on a meat diet and lost a great deal weight. By neat diet I mean they now only eat meat and nothing out of the ground. I can’t recall the name of the diet at the moment but as silly as it sounds it allows one to eat a lot and everything is fried.


That was the Atkins Diet. A Doctor from Miami dealt with a lot of obese folks, so he began thinking things through. He realized that carbs turn to sugar once eaten. Then that sugar turns to fat in the body. So he figured if you do away with carbs, you lessen fat...and so the Atkins diet was create. Focus was on protein. So pretty much all meat...any meat. Fried, grilled, roasted. Fat wasn't big deal, so bacon was good. People marvelled you could diet with bacon.

It was pretty big when I worked at a large training facility. So much that students demanded Atkins based snacks in break area...jerky, nuts, cheese.

I knew a few folks who lost weight on Atkins. For the most part they were pretty happy with diet. Eating meat does fill you, and as it's tougher to digest, you feel full longer. But they told me that without carbs they felt sluggish and low energy. And the high protein played havoc on their bowel movements. A lot of constipation.

Today's Keto diet is much like Atkins.

The most amazing thing I find about all this, is the amount of money being made off these books and programs...
"Imagination is more important than knowledge."
LobowolfXXX
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On Dec 12, 2020, ed rhodes wrote:


My question has been about the title of this thread; But, if (as a meat eater) I actually WANTED to be a vegan, why would I be trying to eat a "vegan" burger that in fact tastes like beef?


Because it tastes good.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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On Dec 14, 2020, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 13, 2020, E.S. Andrews wrote:

A small sampling of scientific articles on the subject of the critical role of dietary meat in the evolution of homo sapiens and, in particular, their intellect, and how it gave us a decided evolutionary advantage over our evolutionary cousins:


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5417583/

https://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/rele......99a.html

https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledg......3874273/

https://time.com/4252373/meat-eating-veganism-evolution/

http://www.scielo.org.co/scielo.php?pid=......&tlng=en


Thanks for the cites, much appreciated.

I looked at the abstracts and the main arguments of the articles.

Best I can tell:

1. None of them talked about possible de-evolution due to veganism. And for good reason--it's a silly argument. What evolution would have naturally selected for hundreds of thousands of years ago, adapting to the world's specific conditions *then*, cannot be applied to conditions in the world *now*. I am not competing against saber tooth tigers for my food or survival right now. I *am* now competing in a world whose meat-raising practices may well impact both local and global chances for our species' survival.

2 The second listed article even makes the following related point:

"Without meat, said Milton, it's unlikely that proto humans could have secured enough energy and nutrition from the plants available in their African environment at that time to evolve into the active, sociable, intelligent creatures they became. Receding forests would have deprived them of the more nutritious leaves and fruits that forest-dwelling primates survive on, said Milton." [italics mine]

In other words, meat then was important because the plants available at the time could not provide enough energy. But this is before the advent of even agricultural knowledge. So yes meat availability was important then, but now we can get enough nutrition in our everyday modern lives through vegan foods and supplementation.

3. The NIH article abstract says: "Too high a meat intake and fertility falls below replacement levels. Reducing variances in meat consumption might help stabilise population growth and improve human capital." And that's in an article you cite to support your view. Now I know you are not advocating a meat only diet, and your view is more nuanced than that. But I quote that exactly to point out that the relationship of meat-eating to health is full of pro and cons, and not simply one of "you must eat meat for brain health and veganism will make us devolve." It's just not so. And I say that as someone who is *not* a vegan.


Fight the good fight, brother.

Happy New Year!
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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I don't get the militant attitude of some on each side.

If you want a vegan diet, then eat one. If you want a meat based diet eat one. If you want a combo then have at it.

We had a girl who was vegan live with us. She would have a reaction to things that were even using animal based oils. Her body was just not accustomed to it and had some issues if she tried to eat animal based ANYTHING. I felt bad cooking pork chops on the grill and having animal products in front of her. She didn't care. It was HE choice and meat based diet was OUR choice and nobody cared, we just respected each side.

Crazy huh?
Danny Doyle
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Danny, you mean there are people that are not offended by things that go against their practices and beliefs? I am not sure I understand that concept.
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On Jan 2, 2021, Dannydoyle wrote:
I don't get the militant attitude of some on each side.

If you want a vegan diet, then eat one. If you want a meat based diet eat one. If you want a combo then have at it.

We had a girl who was vegan live with us. She would have a reaction to things that were even using animal based oils. Her body was just not accustomed to it and had some issues if she tried to eat animal based ANYTHING. I felt bad cooking pork chops on the grill and having animal products in front of her. She didn't care. It was HE choice and meat based diet was OUR choice and nobody cared, we just respected each side.

Crazy huh?



It sort of depends why one is a vegan. I get the militant attitude of some vegans. "Agree to disagree" doesn't really work so well in some contexts, e.g.

"Look, if you're against slavery, then don't own slaves..."

"Well, just because YOU'RE not a Nazi, don't impose your beliefs kn the rest of us..."

No, animals are not people, but I would suggest that the difference in the analogies here is one of degree, not kind
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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Hence the militance.
Catch a fish to feed your children = slavery, naziism. Good lord.
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Pretty much the same "Good lord" eyeroll that pro-choice advocates have in response to "Abortion is murder."

But the point isn't "Fishing is just like Nazism"; it's that "agree to disagree" has some serious limitations as a moral philosophy when third-party suffering is at issue.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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I guess I see the stance, but disagree with the validity is all.

I do see where a moral context is the point.

Taken to an absurd conclusion are plants not life forms and therefore a third party?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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On Jan 2, 2021, Dannydoyle wrote:
I guess I see the stance, but disagree with the validity is all.


Yeah, I'm not saying it's a position you have to buy into; just that it's not (imo) that hard to see where even the militant ones are coming from.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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True.
Danny Doyle
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Weren’t the Nazis militants?

When a militant vegan, like Hitler, compares the meat industry to the holocaust, one has to wonder if it’s kosher.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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Incredible. My ancestors have sustained their families with meat and plants- harvested in the most ethical, respectful, ways possible, using all of the plant and animal for millennia, and now it is mentioned in the same breath as Nazi, Abortion, and slavery. This is beyond grotesque.
My final post here.
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Imagine how offended the Nazi's are!

I also don't get being this offended sorry. This is EXACTLY how these things get so far out of control.
Danny Doyle
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On Jan 3, 2021, magicfish wrote:

My final post here.



I'll take that bet.


Now, back into obscurity...
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LobowolfXXX
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On Jan 3, 2021, Dannydoyle wrote:
Imagine how offended the Nazi's are!

I also don't get being this offended sorry. This is EXACTLY how these things get so far out of control.


Exploring moral philosophy isn't for everyone.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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Quote:
On Jan 2, 2021, Dannydoyle wrote:
I don't get the militant attitude of some on each side.

If you want a vegan diet, then eat one. If you want a meat based diet eat one. If you want a combo then have at it.

We had a girl who was vegan live with us. She would have a reaction to things that were even using animal based oils. Her body was just not accustomed to it and had some issues if she tried to eat animal based ANYTHING. I felt bad cooking pork chops on the grill and having animal products in front of her. She didn't care. It was HE choice and meat based diet was OUR choice and nobody cared, we just respected each side.

Crazy huh?



Mutual understanding? It'll never catch on!

Seriously, I have always said if you want to (or NEED to) be vegan, go for it. I won't try to sway you otherwise. Just don't try to tell me that it's what > I < "secretly" want!
"There's no time to lose," I heard her say.
"Catch your dreams before they slip away."
"Dying all the time, lose your dreams and you could lose your mind.
Ain't life unkind?"
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If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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I personally don't understand my own near-hatred of vegetarians as a younger man...
It took my daughter becoming a Vegetarian/"Seattle Vegan" to open my eyes to another point of view. We have moved as a family towards being sustainable/ethical.
I still eat meat, but now my wife and I look more closely at sourcing and other variables (foie gras for example has become ethically detestable). I still use leather, but far less and when necessary. We still use plastics, but more rarely "single use" plastics. That's a good thing!

Over the course of maybe 5 years, she has changed my thinking and behavior significantly (and continues to do so), and I unfortunately otherwise tend to be rather intractable.
That never would have happened had the discussion become antagonistic.

Antagonism rarely leaves room for education, becoming absurd rhetoric that proves nothing, rhetoric becomes the argument (Like it is here). Good Vs. Evil almost demands a war to sort out.

Through antagonism (from both ideals) people forget that the discussion was one of a hamburger (That is actually pretty good) and of a philosophy that has merit. While it does not possess ALL merit, it ultimately is a powerful tool for the good of everyone (who can afford it), and hopefully one day the majority of people will easily live a more Plant Based and sustainable lifestyle (without being forced naturally) for the better of ourselves and the world, and still leaving room for those who do not hold to the philosophy of Vegan.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
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If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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