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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » Critique my Elmsley Count? -- and filming advice? (3 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Bob G
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Hi Warren,


I'm interested, but I don't follow. Would be happy to hear you elaborate -- in a PM if you feel that your elaboration would be exposure.


Thanks,


Bob
Tortuga
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I think he means when the LH peels the cards off, it drops down, sometimes even giving the cards a snap.

BTW, as far as exposure, that horse has left the barn. Youtube probably has a thousand videos where you can learn the EC, so anyone that desperate to learn it has little obstacles. Oh, you can also learn the turnover pass, the riffle pass, and on and on and on......

This site is subtitled Magicians Helping Magicians. Personally, I assume anyone on here is a magician and not just rooting around for secrets. Who does that anyway?
Mr Salk
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Quote:
On May 20, 2019, Tortuga wrote:
This site is subtitled Magicians Helping Magicians. Personally, I assume anyone on here is a magician and not just rooting around for secrets. Who does that anyway?


Everyone! The quickest way to go from clueless-spec to hammy-magician is to be a snouty truffle pig.
.


.
mattH
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I think a good way to practice is count 4 cards from hand to hand ie count 4 face down cards as 4. Your elmsley should look identical and should have the same rythmn.
magicfish
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On May 16, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
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On May 16, 2019, kShepher wrote:
Viola...


Spoken like a true musician!

Wow great catch! Nothing gets past you. That's some top notch stuff right there clever clogs.
Rupert Pupkin
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Clogs indeed! All in good fun. At least it wasn't "wallah." Can't count how many times I've read THAT in a magic book.
Rupert Pupkin
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On May 20, 2019, Tortuga wrote:
This site is subtitled Magicians Helping Magicians. Personally, I assume anyone on here is a magician and not just rooting around for secrets. Who does that anyway?


Agreed! God forbid anyone actually be interested in learning magic Smile
Bob G
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I'm inclined to agree with you, Tortuga and Rupert. I think most people would find this site Dull and Technical -- and, as you said, Tortuga, many, many secrets are already available on youtube videos -- which, as *you* said, Rupert, might get some people interested in magic. I imagine that there *are* some people who see a trick and are consumed with curiosity and manage to type in the right key-words to find the secret, but my guess is that there aren't that many such people. They either aren't especially interested in what happens behind the scenes, and discover that knowing the secret just ruins the trick for them, or they get caught up in what happens backstage and perhaps go on to learn some magic themselves. Neither outcome troubles me.



But there's room for disagreement on this, and I know that Warren is concerned about exposure; that's why I offered the option of a PM.


P. S. to Tortuga. You said: "I think he means when the LH peels the cards off, it drops down, sometimes even giving the cards a snap." That makes sense, and I have seen people do that. Personally, I don't like it; it looks unnatural. But each to her/his own!
Rupert Pupkin
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Yes, well put, Bob.
magicfish
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On May 20, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
Clogs indeed! All in good fun. At least it wasn't "wallah." Can't count how many times I've read THAT in a magic book.

References?
Ado
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On May 20, 2019, Tortuga wrote:
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On May 20, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
It's very weird for a human to count something without looking at it..



I agree, but I wonder if what was meant is to not stare at the cards. To me it is not just the eyes but the overall attitude. Just act casual, don't make it into a move.


Yes, that's what I meant.

I believe there are *bad* times to use an Elmsley. If the first time I show you the cards, I do the count, it's bad. Let me show you the cards openly. You see 4 cards, you touch 4 cards, you know there are 4 cards and no more, and that they are regular, facing the same direction. If, later, having done a reversal or what not, I do an Elmsley, everything will look as it should. Therefore, it's ok to do it openly, without caring about it. As long as my script explains why all is normal, then all is normal, and everyone is happy.

P!
Bob G
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Ado, aren't there times when magicians do an innocent version of a sleight early in a trick, so that spectators will get used to the unfamiliar moves, and then do the "sleight" version later? I'm thinking of a trick I'm especially interested in learning, Vernon's Variant (which is itself a variant, etc...), in which the magician goes through a series of moves. after which the cards end up face down, whereas the spectator goes through the "same "moves and one card is always face up. When Johnny Thompson performs this, he spreads his four cards, and so does the spectator. Then, in the second phase Thompson does an Elmsley count while the spectator deals the cards from hand to hand -- seemingly the same action. So Thompson is doing what you suggest -- openly showing all four cards first.


But isn't there an argument to be made for the magician doing an honest hand-to-hand display in the first phase, and then an Elmsley in the second? I'm not sure about this, but I could imagine that a spectator who saw Thompson openly spread the cards the first time might wonder why he didn't do the same thing the second time. "Hmmm.... he must have had something to hide the second time," the spectator might think.


Or maybe not. Maybe it all goes by so quickly that the spectator won't have thoughts like that. I dunno...
Ado
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This is becoming off-topic (and my fault as well), and others may have their own opinion.
There is definitely value in having your move look like the real thing. I agree with this. What I'm saying, is that the real thing may not be as convincing as *another* real thing. So, if I can, I'll do
1) the real thing that leaves no doubt about my honesty. That is, spread the cards, give them to examine, etc.
2) Once authenticity has been accepted, I can use the less-convincing real thing that will allow me to do the move later. Because I built trust, even though it's less convincing by itself, I build on the trust I acquired before
3) When I do the move, I can do it casually, because it's been accepted that I'm doing something fair, and really, it it shouldn't take any attention nor brain power from me to show 4 cards. So, my Elmsley happens as I look at people in the eyes, saying the cards are all face up (or whatever the effect dictates). People see the cards being counted/dealt/shown, but they care about me, not my hands.
4) if I can, I'll actually slow down, look at my hands, slow down, and do another real thing, and emphasize that really, it's magic. Now I can go back to 2) or 3).

Now, not all trick will allow you to do this. It's then your choice to decide whether you'll settle for what you have, or whether you'll keep looking.

P!
Tortuga
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Quote:
On May 20, 2019, Bob G wrote:
Ado, aren't there times when magicians do an innocent version of a sleight early in a trick, so that spectators will get used to the unfamiliar moves, and then do the "sleight" version later? I'm thinking of a trick I'm especially interested in learning, Vernon's Variant (which is itself a variant, etc...), in which the magician goes through a series of moves. after which the cards end up face down, whereas the spectator goes through the "same "moves and one card is always face up. When Johnny Thompson performs this, he spreads his four cards, and so does the spectator. Then, in the second phase Thompson does an Elmsley count while the spectator deals the cards from hand to hand -- seemingly the same action. So Thompson is doing what you suggest -- openly showing all four cards first.


But isn't there an argument to be made for the magician doing an honest hand-to-hand display in the first phase, and then an Elmsley in the second? I'm not sure about this, but I could imagine that a spectator who saw Thompson openly spread the cards the first time might wonder why he didn't do the same thing the second time. "Hmmm.... he must have had something to hide the second time," the spectator might think.


Or maybe not. Maybe it all goes by so quickly that the spectator won't have thoughts like that. I dunno...



Bob, what you are referencing is called conditioning. You have conditioned the spectators to expect something. This is a psychological technique. The limitation is that in some instances there is no opportunity to "condition" the audience before the move you are trying to camouflage. For that reason, your EC must pass muster. It must be practiced until it looks good. In my opinion if they are burning your hands too much then you have created suspicion or are showing tension, signaling that a move is coming. That's why I say relax and be nonchalant.
The Burnaby Kid
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On May 20, 2019, Ado wrote:
I believe there are *bad* times to use an Elmsley. If the first time I show you the cards, I do the count, it's bad.


It's not quite this cut and dry.

Really, what we're talking about is managing suspicions. It's possible to open with a fair version of a move, show that it's fair, and use that as conditioning for getting away with the unfair version of the move later.

It's ALSO possible to open with the unfair version of the move, then in a repeat, raise the suspicion that this one was also unfair, only to show that it actually WAS fair. Now we're dealing with feints and retroactive conditioning and whatnot.

You can even elevate the latter into an effect. Do a couple of standard ACR phases. At one point, do a move that looks a bit sneaky, like a switch happened, then lift a double and casually flash it outwards before inserting it into the center. Attentive people might say that something happened at that moment, but you've already gotten your push-in change done, and can cleanly show everything is fair. This can be a very strong moment for the right audience, even though ostensibly nothing happened.

For something a bit less in-your-face, compare to the standard opening vanish sequence in the cups and balls. Get them to believe that the ball never goes into the other hand, and then, on the third ball, show that it really HAS gone into the other hand, before doing a wand-spin vanish or whatnot.

But all this stuff isn't automatic. Things like conditioning, feints, misdirection, motivation, etc. are like spices in a recipe. If you don't get the balance right, then one of these can overpower the flavour, ruining the dish and leaving you with an unhappy diner. The problem is, though, that even if you DO get the balance right, you might still have an unhappy diner because not everybody likes beef stroganoff.
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Bob G
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Thanks for this compact summary of what strike me as advanced techniques, Burnaby Kid. It's clear from what you wrote that I have to get my EC looking casual before I can play with any of these techniques -- I tend to get ahead of myself!
warren
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On May 20, 2019, Tortuga wrote:
I think he means when the LH peels the cards off, it drops down, sometimes even giving the cards a snap.


Tortuga has explained what I meant perfectly, it was a tip I picked up off Jay Sankey.
magicfish
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On May 21, 2019, warren wrote:
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On May 20, 2019, Tortuga wrote:
I think he means when the LH peels the cards off, it drops down, sometimes even giving the cards a snap.


Tortuga has explained what I meant perfectly, it was a tip I picked up off Jay Sankey.

As shown in the clip provided. I think it was the third count?
Tortuga
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On May 21, 2019, magicfish wrote:
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On May 21, 2019, warren wrote:
Quote:
On May 20, 2019, Tortuga wrote:
I think he means when the LH peels the cards off, it drops down, sometimes even giving the cards a snap.


Tortuga has explained what I meant perfectly, it was a tip I picked up off Jay Sankey.

As shown in the clip provided. I think it was the third count?


Yes, it was the third count, looked great.
Bob G
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I'm a bit confused -- which clip are we talking about?


Edit: I * think* you're talking about *my* clip, so, like Pooh, I'm looking proud to be called a Stout [Astute] and Helpful Bear.


Seriously, though, I thought I saw a bit of what Warren and others described in my third count. Didn't do it on purpose, but actually I rather like it (despite what I said earlier) because it was subtle and delicate. Another thing to strive to do consistently.


While I'm here, I can report that my count is getting faster and (I think) more casual. Part of it is simply taking the time to keep repeating it, but people's remarks have been really helpful, too. I'll put up another video when I feel that I've made significant progress.


More and more I'm realizing that I love packet tricks (and of course there are lovely tricks that are hybrid packet and full deck), and I feel that the EC is my opening. I figure (hope I'm right) that once I can do a really good EC I'll have developed the skills to learn some of the other counts more quickly.


So, many thanks!


Bob
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