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landmark
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NYC is introducing congestion pricing in 2021 for cars to enter parts of Manhattan at certain peak hours. Some "expert' on the radio was saying that congestion pricing has been shown to be the only thing that relieves traffic woes in big cities like NYC, London and Singapore. I'm not convinced at all that that is the only effective alternative. What do you think?
tommy
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I think poor people should sell their cars.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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S2000magician
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I think that we should adopt Will Rogers' solution: that no car be allowed on the highway until it's paid fer.
arthur stead
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I lived in NYC for almost 30 years. Never needed a car, because subway, bus and taxi service was so efficient. Whenever I needed to leave town, I just rented a car.
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Cliffg37
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I'm with you Arthur. I lived in New York from the early 60's (birth) to 1987. Most of the time I walked where I needed to go. New York is not a city that needs all of its cars. Paying insurance and for parking in NYC is not fun either.
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gallagher
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Uber's share prices just went up...

I think things COULD work,
if the city now says:
"With the money raised, with Congestion Tax;
we will be lowering Public Transpotation costs
and increasing services."

On a side note: Berlin (Germany) is considering making the Public Transportation,....Free.

There are studys that show,
1.) Automoble use, in the city decreases.
2.) Public safty rises.
3.) Polution goes down.
4.) Large space is freed up.
AND,..
4.) Commerce in the city INCREASES(!).

Gallagher

p.s.: How many here, would be willing to give up their car?
Dannydoyle
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Two things at play here. Does one "need" a car and does one want a car. If the city does this what happens with the money?

Certainly they can do what they wish but aren't people already taxed pretty high there? Aren't people already leaving the city? Is more cost a way to stop that?
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Jonathan Townsend
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Most people with cars in NYC don't drive across town to go to a movie or to pick up groceries. Parking is not that easy.
The double parked cars are usually not residential either given the costs of tickets and towed cars.
The traffic is commercial deliveries ( people, goods ) in cars ( limousines, busses, taxis) and trucks rather than residential.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Dannydoyle
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On May 26, 2019, S2000magician wrote:
I think that we should adopt Will Rogers' solution: that no car be allowed on the highway until it's paid fer.


Until the car is paid for or the highway is paid for?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
tommy
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It is all part and parcel of the globalist agenda 21. One can see the same going on everywhere: “Congestion - the daily slog to get anywhere. And the constant restrictions that are faced, the changes in the road network. “Taxation is a real issue. Not only do you have to pay heavily to get your car on the road in the first place, but you also have to pay an awful lot to maintain it.” “On top of that speed camera fines, yellow box junction fines. They are all extra. All these things combined make driving frustrating, inconvenient and expensive.”

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/109668......e-London

The money, the tax, goes to government stationed monopolies, contractors.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Jonathan Townsend
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? paid for - public and private debts. NYC is not your average city. It has above ground and underground mass transit. It's the additional inefficiencies caused by traffic bottlenecks, poor road conditions and selective enforcement of existing laws that drive costs for most drivers. Adding tolls into midtown or peak pricing on Ubers is missing the discussion about mass transit (and its costs).
It amuses some to "play devil's advocate". Here's a more modern version: agent of entropy. That's not chaos but rather causing the loss in the name of the a greater good.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/m......r-review

If you recall the TV commercial asking "What do you tell your children about drugs?" ... when a fair amount of our advertising offers vague discussion about drugs followed by some sort of droning about side effects.

Disclaimer: Thinking about social context may cause possible side effects including reasoning and emotional responses to matters of policy. If emotional responses continue for more than four seconds after reading a post please seek distraction. Smile
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S2000magician
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Quote:
On May 27, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On May 26, 2019, S2000magician wrote:
I think that we should adopt Will Rogers' solution: that no car be allowed on the highway until it's paid fer.

Until the car is paid for or the highway is paid for?

I believe that he actually said the road, and I'm sure that he meant the car.
landmark
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Quote:
On May 27, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
? paid for - public and private debts. NYC is not your average city. It has above ground and underground mass transit. It's the additional inefficiencies caused by traffic bottlenecks, poor road conditions and selective enforcement of existing laws that drive costs for most drivers. Adding tolls into midtown or peak pricing on Ubers is missing the discussion about mass transit (and its costs).
[...]

Disclaimer: Thinking about social context may cause possible side effects including reasoning and emotional responses to matters of policy. If emotional responses continue for more than four seconds after reading a post please seek distraction. Smile


Exactly, Jon, those who are travelling by car in midtown Manhattan at this point are already doing so pretty much as necessity. Those who can use alternate means of getting around have been doing so for a long time: subways, buses, bicycles, skateboards, walking. Raising the price isn't going to lower the number of people who pay for it, anymore than raising the price of a utility is going to stop people from paying for electricity. We are outside the framework of elastic supply and demand here. What it *will* engender is much resentment, b*tching, exceptions for the politically connected, and so on, but ultimately compliance and the increase (if at all possible) of the feeling "you can't fight City Hall."

And what possible enforcement and collection procedures could possibly take less time than the imagined traffic speed increase? All it will do is re-route traffic onto other streets which will have other unintended consequences in the whole gridlock ecosystem.

As to Danny's point about where the money is to go: supposedly some of it is supposed to be used to upgrade the subway system which has been massively underfunded by federal and state revenues over the last thirty years. But I strongly doubt that the money will be legally earmarked that way--more likely it will go into the general city/state coffers, then stolen by real estate interests in the latest round of tax breaks "to spur development." [/rant off]
landmark
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Quote:
On May 27, 2019, gallagher wrote:

On a side note: Berlin (Germany) is considering making the Public Transportation,....Free.

There are studys that show,
1.) Automoble use, in the city decreases.
2.) Public safty rises.
3.) Polution goes down.
4.) Large space is freed up.
AND,..
4.) Commerce in the city INCREASES(!).

Gallagher



We already have a successful example of such a policy here in NYC: for many years the Staten Island Ferry, a twenty minute ride across the river, has been free. Obviously, it costs money to the city to run the service, but the amount spent is returned in many of the ways you've outlined above.

It might be a little churlish of me to point out that Staten Island, being one of the wealthier and far more conservative on average boroughs of NYC, is politically protected from charges of "socialism" when the benefits accrue to its residents...
tommy
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If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
landmark
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On May 28, 2019, tommy wrote:
Engineered Congestion


https://nypost.com/2016/12/02/new-york-c......orrible/


Kind of a silly article without the proper context: The NYPD and the mayor despise each other, and such is the rhetoric during election or contract bargaining times. Or when they feel like it.

The car traffic in Midtown is far too important economically for this mayor or the one preceding him to want to do away with it.

As a former NYC cab driver for 3 years, my opinion is that the worst part of traffic is aggravated most by constant construction closures, double and triple-parked delivery trucks, and traffic agents who upset the carefully timed traffic lights with their interventions.
tommy
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Are you familiar with the proletariat masses having no cars during your years of living under a communist regime, where one stayed close to home, within a 40-mile radius by bus or train, or as far as one could bike, or ones feet could carry one, but where the ruling elite had chauffeurs, elegant cars, and planes at their disposal?

https://americanpolicy.org/2017/05/26/ag......-states/
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Jonathan Townsend
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If you're going to reference a policy and discuss its implementation it helps to introduce the policy: https://sustainabledevelopment.un.org/po......ourworld
Kindly read the linked item with a cynical and privileged perspective seeking opportunity to transform a free market into a command economy wherever consent can permit.

Anyway, that's still not relevant to the midtown NYC problems involving (as other Newyorkers have mentioned) double and triple parked cars, traffic stops due to U. N. sessions or politician visits, light timing, right turn on red prohibitions, bus lanes, added bicycle paths and ... some marginal increases in traffic due to additional vehicles acting as taxis via Uber or Lyft.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
landmark
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Quote:
a communist regime...where the ruling elite had chauffeurs, elegant cars, and planes at their disposal?


Unlike the ruling elite in capitalist countries I guess where all the billionaires can only make do with being transported on the shoulders of Nubian slaves.

Seriously--New Yorkers just famously turned down a new Amazon headquarters here; the final straw? Bezos wanted a private helicopter pad for himself in the middle of Queens as part of the heavily taxpayer-subsidized deal.

But I know-- all that free enterprise is for our own good.
tommy
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What capitalist countries and free enterprise do imagine exist in the 21st century of change post-consumer world?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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