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thomasR Inner circle 1189 Posts 
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I don't have a direct question.. more like a general train of thought that I think could be interesting to discuss.
The top 3 highest paid magicians (Copperfield, Penn and Teler, Criss Angel) all have permanent, resident shows in Vegas. And they perform ALOT of shows. That would seem to indicate to me, that the goal is to be in a place where you can perform lots of shows, rather than trying to simply get more $$$ per show. Copperfield "made the most of his millions by performing an astounding 670 shows at the MGM Grand during our scoring period, which is June 1, 2017, to June 1, 2018." - Forbes. My general thought is, a lot of times it seems the goal is to increase the amount of money you make per show, and actually perform less shows. While that may be the best lifestyle for those wnating to raise a family etc. if the goal is to make money, it seems the quantity of shows is still the key. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10606 Posts
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Great topic, I hope many participate. Many things can be at play here.
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3171 Posts
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For some the goal should be to do both, more shows for more money per show.
Two problems come to mind: 1. Most magicians are lazy. They became self employed because they didn’t want to work a full time job. And they never understand that being successful in your own business requires more work, not less. 2. Most magicians want to copy other magicians and the one thing that the successful ones have in common is they are not common at all. Those in huge demand are those that are unique. There is only one Copperfield, Penn and Teler, Criss Angel, etc. True some look and act like them but that’s not being unique, not much demand for those. Bonus Tip: The more you work the more demand you create. 
Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts
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Most magicians are lazy? Perhaps you are and you can speak to that. But every working professional I have ever come across works quite hard.
Many guys doing 8 or 10 kids shows a week I certainly would not call them lazy. I have never come across a person serious about being a professional performer who was lazy. Most get into it because they love performance, not because they wanted to work less. Your entire post is pretty obnoxious for a guy who is not actually a worker.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts
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Quote:
On Jun 5, 2019, thomasR wrote: As for this I think it is 2 fold. Sitting a show down in a place is another part of the equation as well as lots of shows. I have said it for a long time here and been told I'm crazy but the shear number of shows is a very large factor in success. It also helps you put a great edge on the show. Couple things you need to consider. First being willing to move. People may not show up in your back yard to see you. You need to go to where they are. Also it comes with ups and downs. Slow season and such. Not always easy to weather those storms. Just doing those shows is not the be all and end all. How much you charge for them to come in and what production costs are rule your life. Copperfield is able to do that number of shows because he has sat the show down. Yes the number is a factor but so are many things.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3171 Posts
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On Jun 5, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote: That’s why I started with FOR SOME. If that doesn’t include you, feel free to move on. Bonus Tip Two: You can’t correct a problem if you refuse to see the problem. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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thomasR Inner circle 1189 Posts
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Excellent points Danny.
So you think sitting the show in one place is key to financial success? (It certainly does appear that way..) vs. trying to travel the show? (I said travel vs. tour because there is the legit touring like they used to do... one night here, one night there. Not sure anyone is currently doing that... Jason Bishop was for a bit... anyone left?) and then there is traveling where you set the show down for a short run of a couple weeks or couple months? |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10606 Posts
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There is a lot to this question, much more than most will consider.
On the surface, it appears as one thing, when in reality there is much more ta play. It is much more than just a simple decision or choice. One’s business model and performance markets may dictate the proper answer for them. First, is that matter of the level of the performer. If you are a large, established national entertainer, it may be more of a choice. However, for most here they are not, so their level will likely change this from a choice to a matter of what is required. Part-timers may not have the same concerns and a performer trying to pound out a full-time living. Also why one performs (very dependent on their current (and honest) level which greatly comes into play, as does where they are at in their career, their desired positioning, and market specialization. Secondly, it is a matter of business models. Some business models are based on many consistent, regular performances. Others are not. Some are based on going to the audience, others on the audience coming to you (hence the popularity of Vegas, Branson, etc.) Thirdly, comes the other elements of one’s business. How do you make your money? Many depend solely or primarily on income from their bookings. Others may have 5, 6, 10 or more streams/sources of revenue in their business, which this can also dictate the volume of performances required for sustainability or growth. For most it is not really an independent choice, but how it plays into their greater picture. For many, it will be determined by the foundational composition of your business, which is why creating the right and proper foundational level for your business is so important (everything is based and will be built upon it.) For example, Lou Serrano more recently in the “Coaching” thread said he is seeking to work less, for greater amounts. I had several of my coaching students/clients ask me about this statement, and I explained why I didn’t feel it was a wise choice and that I would have advised someone in his current position otherwise and then went on to explain why (not picking on Lou but it was a more direct recent example he had been willing to share, thanks Lou, it was beneficial to many). Again, there is no right or wrong answer to this question, but more about what is attached or involved in the greater picture. This is a great topic for discussion for performers here of all levels. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts
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Well I have done both. I did headlibe comedy club work in the 90's and sat the show down for a week, occasionally two.
Still a tour of sorts. I have sat shows down in Florida, Branson and, Vegas and in the Caribbean for long periods. This I'm a fan of. The road is just not fun for me. I like to be "home" wherever that might be. There are touring shows. Kevin Ridgeway and Kristen Johnson tour quite successfully. Lots of guys still do it. It is just not for me any more. It is a matter of preference I think.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts
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Quote:
On Jun 5, 2019, TomBoleware wrote: No Tom. You flat out said most magicians are lazy. It is written, it is obvious. Just because a previous sentence said "for some " in no way changes it. Yes stop refusing to see the problem. Since this is about performing professionally in this current century no need for you to keep posting.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10606 Posts
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On Jun 5, 2019, thomasR wrote: I'm just completing in the next couple of weeks my annual spring tour, and yes, almost all of it has been one-nighters in different towns and venues. Short, multi-shows in one place are usually considered "runs" or "residencies" and yes, are considered something different. |
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thomasR Inner circle 1189 Posts
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Mindoro, can you give a hypothetical scenario where it makes sense to focus on doing less shows? I’m sure multiple scenarios exist, just would be easier to understand that way.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts
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I can if you don't mind?
For example things do not happen in a vacuum. Life will continue. So if a person is a professional performer and has a family at home and has not sat the show down, doing as few shows as possible while making enough money to be able to support them becomes paramount. Too often these discussions happen outside the parameters of life itself. Many choose to balance family with performance and it is a delicate balance. Not an easy thing to strike that is for certain. Some just get tired of the road. It sounds glamorous but it is tiresome. My Google thingie told me I traveled over 59,000 miles last year. It is crazy. And that is me toning DOWN how much I travel! Even with sitting the show down places it involves a lot of travel. I can not imagine having to actually do tours any more. It is all about individual choices really. All by the way are the correct choice for those who make them. Nobody can tell another the best way to live for them. Each situation is unique and has unique demands.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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thomasR Inner circle 1189 Posts
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Oh I know that touring isn’t glamorous. Crossloading from a broken down bus trailer to a box truck on the side of the interstate in 20 degrees is about as far from glamorous as it gets! Ha.
And yes you are correct, a business model can look all perfect when it’s in a sealed bottle like a model ship, but get it out into the real world and conditions are very different! Another great point is the quality of the show. That’s another point that can’t be fully measured outside of the real world. The show has to be good, and the show has to work for any business plan to work. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10606 Posts
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Quote:
On Jun 5, 2019, thomasR wrote: Sure. Of course, there are many and varied examples of this but let me give you a generic one that many may someday come to realize. I am fortunate enough to work with performers of all levels, experience, and locations. Many start and work hard to build up their business. Through a conventional approach, they work continuously on getting more bookings and maybe every few to five years trying to raise their prices a bit. Over years or even decades they develop some kind of "normal" approach to getting new bookings (I believe the balance should be 20-25 new clients/booking each year, and 75-80% retun bookings) and of course also retaining rebookings, referrals, etc. from the shows they have done and for the clients they have served. Many performers that feel they have performed professionally and supported their family often operate like this. It is an easy business model to settle into and it is often (rinse and repeat) doing the same thing over and over again. Nothing wrong with that. However, lets say the guy (or girl) is 48, 56. or maybe 63 years old and after decades of doing this finds out he/she has health problems (bad back, cancer, physical deteriation, or perhaps soem kind of disease) and soon discovers that he/she either can no longer continue to do the amount of shows he/she once did due to physical or health limitations, or is ordered from the doctor to only perform let's say once a week or 5 times a month at most. Using this example for a guy (or girl) that tries to average 15 to 23 shows a month at lests say (to keep it easy) at $1,000 a show, he (and his/her family and lifestyle) is used to earning $15,000-$23,000 a month. He/she now has to cut that amount of shows down to maybe 4 or 5 a month. So their current options are to take the hit and drop down to $4,000-$5,000 a month income (a huge hit for anyone) or they would have to reposition and restructure their business around only being able to do 4 or 5 shows a month. To maintain this current level of income and comfort he/she would then have to charge $3,000 to $4,600 (or maybe $5,000) per show. Here is an example where it clearly makes sense to do fewer shows, but in an attempt to maintain their income and lifestyle may have to make such internal adjustments in their business. There may be much more detail to this than I've offered but it is a very common situation as we grow older. Another example is if one has traveled or toured for years, been a road warrior, and suddenly decides he/she must stay home and can now only perform locally or regionally. This too could be a cause for such a change. I hope this helps. |
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Ken Northridge Inner circle Atlantic City, NJ 2393 Posts
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I heard Mark Wilson lecture once. He told the story of a young David Copperfield coming to him for advice. Mark Wilson advised Copperfield NOT to travel with an illusion show because it is not profitable. Copperfield completely ignored this advice for a very long time. It has only been the last 15 to 20 years that he has stopped traveling so much and settled in at Vegas. Copperfield only enjoys a ‘residency’ because of years of hard work creating an outstanding reputation. I find it remarkable that even though Copperfield is super rich and 62 years old he still does 670 shows per year! I don’t care if you’re traveling or not, 670 shows per year is very hard work.
Years ago a magician friend told me he made the decision not to leave his home unless he gets x amount of money. He was going for the less shows, more money business model. Years later he was working part time at a grocery store. IMHO if money is your goal then the more shows you can do the better, no matter what level you are at, and no matter how much you decide to travel. But of course, money is not the only measure of success.
"Love is the real magic." -Doug Henning
www.KenNorthridge.com |
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charliecheckers Inner circle 1969 Posts
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I can think of a few situations where fewer shows can make sense.
My brother is just starting out full time and there is a ton of work to get himself to where he wants to be with his show and business. There is also a need for money though, so there is a temptation to look for more bookings, even in lower priced markets to raise capital. The issue is though, that seeking, booking, traveling and performing such shows takes a lot of time. Time he spends building partnerships and relationships as well as developing his business in a purposeful way for long term sustained growth. One also has to be concerned about brand image when doing shows below their desired standard, in terms of money or venue. As has been stated earlier, a lot depends on where the individual is in relation to their performance, business and life circumstances. I think what Lou may have been referring to is that raising his price to a point where he is receiving fewer bookings (but more total income) would allow himself to establish his brand at a higher price point while doing fewer shows. He could then continue to build his business among such potential clients that pay premium prices. I’m not sure that was his intent or that it is wise, just one possible scenario where one may consider doing fewer shows, at least for a while. The names mentioned in the OP are top names in the industry, where maintaining their image is vital for success. I believe that is a strong motive to do many shows, beyond just the joy of getting the money, it keeps them in the news. |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3171 Posts
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Quote:
On Jun 6, 2019, Ken Northridge wrote: Well said Ken. Excellemt post. Yes Copperfield has been going nonstop for years and that’s why I say compared to him MOST are lazy. When it comes to work he has a completely different mindset from the pack. He enjoys the work above anything in life; it’s not work to him. It’s called being a workaholic, a word which most fear becoming. And regardless of what anyone tells you, you can’t set a show down in one place without first having a unique reputation to keep it going. It fails everytime. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10606 Posts
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On Jun 6, 2019, TomBoleware wrote: Unfortunately, this is not true but simply an opinion. There are countless examples that prove this quite incorrect. |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3171 Posts
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Quote:
On Jun 6, 2019, Mindpro wrote: Name one newcomer to magic that has a show located in one place for any length of time. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricky business » » Quantity / Volume of Shows? (20 Likes) | ||||||||||
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Posted: Jun 5, 2019 10:36 pm 
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