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tommy
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3. London Ritz Club—2004

“By far the most successful documented predictive device, at least in terms of money won, was a roulette computer used in March 2004 at the Ritz Club in London. Vlad Markov and two companions used a combination computer and laser tracker built into a cellular phone to predict in which octant the roulette ball would fall. Markov’s first choice was apparently to play in Las Vegas, but he selected London instead, because the United Kingdom, unlike Nevada, still did not have any laws making predictive devices illegal. In two days of heavy betting, the trio won 1.2 million pounds (2 million U.S. dollars). When the computer was discovered, all three were arrested and both the money and the computer were confiscated. However, when Scotland Yard figured out what Vlad’s computer did, they realized it was not a cheating device and released the trio, giving back the computer and all the cash they had won.”

UNLV Gaming Law Journal

High-Tech Casino Advantage Play: Legislative Approaches to the Threat of Predictive Devices

David W. Schnell-Davis

2012

https://scholars.law.unlv.edu/glj/vol3/iss2/7/
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
JasonEngland
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I find it hilarious that you posted a link to an article that clearly got all of its information from (and even provides citations to) Richard Marcus' World's Greatest Gambling Scams book. That book is one of the worst books on gambling/cheating that I've ever read.

I'll say it again: everything in the news articles is wrong. Marcus got his information from the news articles (so he's wrong - typical of him) and Schnell-Davis got all of his information from Marcus (and cited his article thusly).


Once again, from Michael Barnett, someone who was THERE and examined the evidence on behalf of the Ritz:

"A review of all the available evidence, hard and soft, along with eye witness reports does not demonstrate or indicate device use. There are other quasi-legal techniques that can be employed to make roulette prediction viable; there is no evidence of this either. It beggars belief that some of the most experienced and highly trained staff in the country would stand by and allow anything like this to happen if there was any hard evidence or even a strong indication that anything untoward was going on. I am not surprised that a gullible public would swallow the "laser" story but I am somewhat disappointed that people within the industry don't give their Ritz colleagues any credit for doing their job. It is important to understand that the Ritz players did not get AWAY with anything, we know what they did and it didn't involve lasers. At the risk of repeating myself; device use in a British casino will almost certainly buy you a trip to the Big House."

Also from Barnett:

"I have just returned from a month at the Ritz. I should point out that my recent UK visit was as a consultant not an AP. Do not believe everything (anything) you read in the papers; device use will not be tolerated in British casinos. The reports in the world press bore no relation to the facts; if there had been evidence of device use the protagonists would not be walking away with their loot. Whilst there my not be specific laws governing device use under the Act, there are sufficient other legal mechanisms that could be applied. Do not take the outcome of the Ritz case to assume that carte blanche has been given to device equipped players...the Gaming Act is only a small part of the British legal system, whilst there is nothing in the act to cover this situation, I am informed by the police that there are other sections of the criminal code under which device use could fall."

I'll translate for Tommy: There were no devices. The players know this, the Ritz knows this, the police know this. The press, apparently, doesn't.

But if there had been devices, the Ritz could have almost certainly at least attempted to prosecute - just not under the Gaming Act. (There are other, older fraud statutes that could have been leveraged.)

J
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
tommy
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I would not trust Michael Barnett with my cat.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
JasonEngland
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I'll take that as your concession that you've been outmaneuvered in this thread. I accept your surrender.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
tommy
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I will take that has you having nothing to corroborate the story of your card marking kit salesman who you claim is a gaming security consultant FOR THE RITZi
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Jul 22, 2019, JasonEngland wrote:

Every newspaper article states that they used "laser scanners" and software on their cell phones. They are all wrong.

First of all, I don't know about you, but even 15 years later, my cell phone doesn't have a laser scanner (and it certainly didn't in 2004!).

Jason


It doesn't? How come? What sort of phone do you have? I though even flip-top phones had scanners.

Hmmm...Let me check my flip-top.

Oh my mistake. It seems like I mistook the calculator for a laser scanner.

Sorry about that. Smile
Cagliostro
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Richard Marcus?

Did someone write, "Richard Marcus?"

Is he still around?

I have not read his two books or the material on his website in many years but from what I recall, he is an blatant hustler and scammer and loves to exaggerate and sensationalize that which he writes about. However, as I recall, not everything Marcus wrote was incorrect or highly exaggerated although a great deal of it was.

Let's face it, some people will go to any extreme to sell a book or their gambling/scamming expertise in their quest to obtain the highly coveted title of ......

"GAMBLING EXPERT." Smile

Got to admire his unconcealed chutzpah though. Smile
disgruntledpuffin
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He is indeed still around. I recently was at a seminar he conducted. To say I was unimpressed was an understatement. He won't get booked in London again, I'd guarantee that.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jul 22, 2019, JasonEngland wrote:
Every newspaper article states that they used "laser scanners" and software on their cell phones. They are all wrong.

First of all, I don't know about you, but even 15 years later, my cell phone doesn't have a laser scanner (and it certainly didn't in 2004!). In 2004 you had to push a button 3 times just to text the letter "C" to someone.

Police arrested them a few hours after one of the big plays. A search of their phones found...nothing. Nothing there, nothing deleted (forensics can tell you if something was deleted a few hours ago) and nothing resembling a laser "anything." Video surveillance doesn't indicate anyone using any sort of hidden device either. I've worn a roulette computer in a casino - I know what it looks like when someone is using one. They weren't.

Michael Barnett was the gaming security consultant FOR THE RITZ in this case and he went on record and said that there was no indication that the crew used ANY electronics of any kind.

They beat that wheel with visual prediction, not electronics. Perfectly legal.

And that's why they were released without charge and paid.

Jason


Well Jason I had no idea you were going to use facts and proof and then common sense in this discussion. Tommy is not used to that.

I have a question. Isn't visual prediction not too accurate? I mean in all the years of the roulette wheel nobody has beaten it in a significant enough way to make them try to stop this with the exception of when they stop bets.

Please do not think an argumentative tone exists in my post , I am genuinely asking as it is interesting.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
tommy
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True but then I am used to you.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
JasonEngland
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Visual prediction (or visual ballistics if you prefer) works a lot better with older wheels that have a steep inner cone and steep walls. It also benefits from deep pockets. The ball "splashes down" and since it takes more energy to climb out of deep pockets and up a steep cone/walls, it tends to not scatter (bounce around) as much.

Modern wheels have shallow bowls and very shallow center cones. The pockets are also much shallower these days. The ball may indeed hit where you predict, but the smallest bit of energy from that initial impact can send it up onto the cone where it can drift around and meander until the original impact point has moved away from it. The amount of scatter is tremendous these days.

So, your "accuracy" with regard to point of impact may be the same with old wheels and new ones. But your ability to make a profit will NOT be the same. Newer wheels are tougher to beat (in general).

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Aug 9, 2019, JasonEngland wrote:

Modern wheels have shallow bowls and very shallow center cones...The amount of scatter is tremendous these days...

So, your "accuracy" with regard to point of impact may be the same with old wheels and new ones. But your ability to make a profit will NOT be the same. Newer wheels are tougher to beat (in general).


These joints, (the casinos that is), have been beaten so many times, for so long, for so much money, in so many different ways, that over time, little by little, they of necessity make "improvements" or "adjustments" in their procedures and equipment in order to thwart the hustlers or at least ameliorate their impact.

Jason's comment is one example of the change in equipment they have made to protect themselves or at least "reduce the pain."

It is like being hit over the head repeatedly. Eventually you figure out, "Hey, maybe I should move my head out of the way." Smile
tommy
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It all depends on the circumstances: if you happen to be a top casino in London and entrust your security to the wizard of Oz, who happens to run a gamblers supply house, has been banned from casinos and is an arms dealer on the side, then you might also be a masochist looking forward to being hit.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
disgruntledpuffin
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Quote:
On Aug 9, 2019, JasonEngland wrote:
Visual prediction (or visual ballistics if you prefer) works a lot better with older wheels that have a steep inner cone and steep walls. It also benefits from deep pockets. The ball "splashes down" and since it takes more energy to climb out of deep pockets and up a steep cone/walls, it tends to not scatter (bounce around) as much.

Modern wheels have shallow bowls and very shallow center cones. The pockets are also much shallower these days. The ball may indeed hit where you predict, but the smallest bit of energy from that initial impact can send it up onto the cone where it can drift around and meander until the original impact point has moved away from it. The amount of scatter is tremendous these days.

So, your "accuracy" with regard to point of impact may be the same with old wheels and new ones. But your ability to make a profit will NOT be the same. Newer wheels are tougher to beat (in general).

Jason


Jason is, as usual, totally correct. Just in case it's of interest I will add that the material and size of the roulette balls is a variable. Casinos usually keep a stock of more that one type of ball (ivorine and teflon for example) and have a couple of different diameters to hand. Usually, switching these around is more to do with game pace issues but the material and size affects the ballistics of the ball also. Some of them bounce like crazy.
tommy
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It also used to be standard practice for casinos to switch the inner wheels on their tables occasionally, especially if they suspected something. Most casinos here use Cammegh wheels and the modern ones are linked to a computer. Now, these computers are interesting. They give out all sorts of info: game logs stored within the wheel's secure memory and things like rotor integrity, wheel level, erroneous ball and rotor speeds, game interruptions and unexpected ball drops. Those with access, it seems to me, may be able to clock the wheel and they might just possibly collude with a player or three. Perhaps, it might be possible to hack the wheel's secure memory etcetera and use the wheel manager as a prediction device.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Dannydoyle
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So essentially visual prediction has been neutralized?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
disgruntledpuffin
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Quote:
On Aug 11, 2019, tommy wrote:
It also used to be standard practice for casinos to switch the inner wheels on their tables occasionally, especially if they suspected something. Most casinos here use Cammegh wheels and the modern ones are linked to a computer. Now, these computers are interesting. They give out all sorts of info: game logs stored within the wheel's secure memory and things like rotor integrity, wheel level, erroneous ball and rotor speeds, game interruptions and unexpected ball drops. Those with access, it seems to me, may be able to clock the wheel and they might just possibly collude with a player or three. Perhaps, it might be possible to hack the wheel's secure memory etcetera and use the wheel manager as a prediction device.


That sounds unusual! The serial numbers inside the bowl and turret usually have to match under most procedures. Wheel swaps happen all the time, but the whole unit gets moved. I've never seen or heard of an inner wheel being moved separately to the bowl. Is that an old procedure Tommy? Not contradicting you, genuinely curious. A lot was different before my time in the business - I've only been in 7 years.
tommy
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I don’t think they switch the inner wheel these days because it would mess up their computer programs. Judah Binstock ran the Vic in London in the 60s and early 70s and he wrote a book in 69 called Casino Administration: The House and the Player and the practice of switching the inner wheel is, I think, mentioned in that book.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Aug 9, 2019, tommy wrote:
...if you happen to be a top casino in London and entrust your security to the wizard of Oz, who happens to run a gamblers supply house, has been banned from casinos and is an arms dealer on the side, then you might also be a masochist looking forward to being hit.


Of course, there is a viable alternative to hiring someone like this, while not commenting on the veracity of the statement quoted.

Actually, there is a much simpler alternative. The online yellow pages in Vegas has 24 pages dedicated to ads, full page write-ups, testimonials, pictures and various credentials for numerous gambling and casino protection experts for hire.

The more credible casino and gambling experts have a college degree...some even have a masters or doctorate on gambling protection and can supply videos of themselves dealing seconds and bottoms on their Facebook page for added credibility.

Surprisingly, some of these experts have even been in a casino and gambled "on the square" at roulette, poker, BJ and the like. The thinking being that if one professes to be a gambling expert, one should at least have some idea as to how the games are dealt and played.

In fact, it is getting hard to find someone who is NOT a gambling expert in this day and age in Vegas.

So tommy, as you can see, one's options for casino and game protection are wide open at this point in time.

Whoa. Did my wife hide my bottle of scotch again? ***! Smile
Dannydoyle
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[quote]On Aug 13, 2019, Cagliostro wrote:

In fact, it is getting hard to find someone who is NOT a gambling expert in this day and age in Vegas.

/quote]

Or on the Internet.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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