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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » False transfer for balls? -- for ball and vase (5 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Bob G
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Well... I answered one of my questions. Al explains the one-cup routine that he linked us to in -- The Theory and Practice of False Transfers!
Necromancer
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Quote:
On Aug 3, 2019, Al Schneider wrote:
Bob
Allow me to give some history of my material.

When I lived in Minneapolis I rented a meeting room in a hotel every Monday. I taught magic there. The first class was on coin vanishes. Over six years I developed a method of teaching. People off the street would take the class and within two weeks did a vanish that matched mine. Sometimes better. The book The Theory and Practice of False Transfers is an attempt to duplicate the way the class was run. Included in the book are description of things many students would do wrong. As an after thought in the book I added information about ball vanishes.

I cannot tell you if going right to the ball vanish would work. Understand that in class I sat in front of the student and coached each step. In general, the student did not know what was coming next. To them, there was only one thing to be concerned with. I did not let them go on until a step was mastered. In defense of the material, I believe if the steps are done to boring and to completion, the student will learn a very good vanish in the shortest possible time. I have demonstrated this many times.

I cannot remember what I said about the ball vanish in the book. I have two ways to do it. Then there is a third way I have never written up. You can see it in the following video.

http://www.worldmagiccenter.com/MAGIC1/ROV/aaab0V.htm

It is called hardball at the end of the video.

Be glad to answer some other questions if they are not to complicated.

Al


Great clip, Al. Thanks for sharing.

Best,
Neil
Creator of The Xpert (20 PAGES of reviews!) and the Hands-Off Multiple ESP System ("Quality and design far exceed any ESP cards on the market"-Genii), both at Penguin.
plungerman
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Retention of Vision is best demonstrated with a shiny object such as a coin. Few people linger long enough with the coin before closing their hand around it to get the eyes to work that magic. The principle is normally the same. The view of the object is super-imposed at the hand and is expected to remain where it was put. Why wouldn't it be.

In use for a cup and ball routine or ball vase it is necessary to script or plan the actions so the move is done as an in transit action. That is, done while on the way to doing something else. As great (!!!) as Al's video is he justly points out that the move must be in some context and not in this demo mode. Here we are burning each other's hands while trying for an invisible pass. In reality no spectator should suspect a vanish or change is about to take place. Only that they are about to see something wonderful.

You are correct, receiving hand must be shaped as it would be when actually holding the object. Try you-toob to see people violating this rule all over. As far as not closing the hand around the object look at Slydini. I have been using his technique for years where you hold the fingers with the thumb behind to simulate possession of the object. The fingers are held next to each other flat as if there was actually an object there. Naturally it can have some angle issues but works fine with a well behaved audience.

The very best practice is to actually place the olive into the hand over and over while paying attention. I practice this casually as I breathe all day. As much as I enjoy the fancy methods they are a not what fool me or many others. Al Scheinder's is the very best advice for the simplest looking method. He is as good as he is because he has practiced as much as he has, along with being very talented.

P
Bob G
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Thanks, Plungerman. Yes, Schneider is clearly very talented -- and that's probably a gross understatement.


Aaron Fisher has some nice tutorials on the French Drop (on Youtube!), and he hold his fingers flat as you describe. I like that very much. But I wonder, would that look natural for balls, not just coins? I haven't done the intensive self-observation that you have, but would flat fingers work well for olives and other spheroids (ball-like objects), or is a loose fist better? Of course I need to try this for myself but Im curious what you discovered in your own case.


Right now I'm imagining myself tossing an olive from hand to hand, over and over, and I'm seeing myself forming a very loose fist with the receiving hand. Oops! -- practice time over. I ate it.


Bob
plungerman
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As expected you've answered your own question. Your own experience will teach you precisely how to hold the olive. I wonder that you would not hold it at the fingertips since all the olives I know of come from jars and bowls where they stay in oil or water.

As I tell anyone just starting out you should spend more time with the real object than your imagination. Get a small ball, bead or bit of gravel the size of the olive so it will not get et so easily. Get a few and learn how you hold and manage them in your hands, counting them back and forth, picking them up and such. Are you careful not to hurt them? Are they wet or sticky or slippery? Once in your hand how would you reposition an olive that was about to vanish, to get it ready? This physical vocabulary is what you want to explore and acquire.

In learning to juggle I got a great deal from the practice of freezing All my motions when dropping or catching incorrectly, (Thank you, Charles Lewis). This is the best learning tool for anything physical. You can do this as well to stop and observe just what is going on as your hands come together in one way or another.

Naturally you will be working on vanishes and other things along the way but it would pay to put some time aside to work on these things as well.
Bob G
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Good point, P, about holding olives at fingertips if you pull them out of a jar. Also interesting to hear about cross-training by learning juggling. No time for that now -- but two years till I retire, and then the sky's the limit, I hope. Does Charles Lewis have books or DVD's on juggling?


I was just rereading Schneider's Theory...of False Transfers, and it seems to me that what you call physical vocabulary is exactly what he's talking about. Your additional details are very helpful. Plenty of inedible things around the house, so I'll practice with those too.


You mentioned Slydini. Do you have a reference for where he talks about these things?


Bob
plungerman
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Charles Lewis, know as Carlo wrote "The Juggling Book" back in the 70's. I still buy used copies from Amazon to give away. It is still the most detailed description of juggling, basic to advanced, I have ever found. The practice of freezing is pretty simple. You just have to get the habit of stopping everything once you know you've blown it. From there you can work backwards to find where the mistake began. For magic it would just mean to freeze along the way to review just what your arms and hands are actually doing (often not what you thought they were) and what they look like.

As far as Slydini, you only need to look at one of his tapes to see him hold a coin that is not there. That is the only reason I mention fingers being held flat as if they held a coin. Books on his magic are great but you have enough to keep you busy for now.

As for retirement; I remember taking books home from school two lifetimes ago expecting to be able to read them once the panic of finals had abated. I'm still looking for all that time. Keep working on goals >>NOW<<. Tomorrow is promised to no man.
Bob G
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Thanks for the info! I'd never heard before of the idea of freezing action and retracing to figure out what went wrong. I'm going to try that with my magic -- maybe it will allow me to become more consistent with my sleights.



I agree with you about goals. My step-dad always wanted to write fiction, but felt he didn't have time while he was working and had obligations to his kids and step-kids. Fortunately he has lived into his nineties, and wrote hundreds of stories until I think he felt he had accomplished what he wanted to and stopped. But I made it a point to write poetry seriously beginning in my thirties. It wasn't easy, but it was very, very rewarding personally. And I've been lucky to get published in some good magazines (nothing, though, that anyone would have heard of if they're not part of that world, except for the Journal of the American Medical Association). I started when I did precisely because of what you said" "Tomorrow is promised to no man (or woman)."


On the other hand, it's possible to work on goals with such a concentrated intensity that life becomes a burden. So I think there has to be a happy medium.


End of sermon! Smile
Al Schneider
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I like the comments here about me.
However, I would like to add a bit. When some magicians hold a coin at their fingertips, the fingers are pressed together in an arc around the coin. I think it is better to grasp the imaginary coin with the two middle fingers. The first and little finger could be held away from the pretend coin. I feel if the fingers all support the imaginary coin or the fingers are held flat together, it looks a bit odd and may attract suspicion. If the first and little fingers back off, I think it creates a better illusion a coin is there.
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
Bob G
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Thanks, Al. Your comments about holding a coin at the fingertips make sense to me. Have you written anything about your methods for the case where the receiving hand takes the object in the fingertips? (I'll be embarrassed if the answer is "yes, in the theory and practice of false transfers!" But there's a lot there.)


I have a question or two. When people hold a coin at their fingertips, don't they hold it in their index and middle fingers?


--- I just tried it. With a penny sized coin I held the coin as I just described, with the coin held by thumb and first two fingers, and the third and fourth fingers relaxed and curled slightly inward toward my palm.


Then I tried it with a large, heavy silver dollar. I found myself holding it with the index and middle fingers, and the right part of the pad of my ring finger. (I'm right-handed.) The little finger was curled in front of the ring finger, but in contact with it as if to support it. Maybe these details depend on the person. These are deep waters, as Holmes might say.



It seems to me that where the receiving hand holds the object will depend on the circumstances. For instance, if you toss the object from one hand to the other, it will go from fingertips of one hand to palm of the other. On the other hand, if you're transferring the object to the other hand because you plan to, say, drop the object into a glass after the coin is transferred, then you're likely to move the object from fingertips to fingertips.


This is all obvious stuff, I'm sure, for experienced people, but I'm just starting to think it through. I really appreciate your participation.


Bob
Al Schneider
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Can't remember what I have written and where.
You are on the right track. Probably more than me.
I got some of my information watching cashiers handling money.
They tend to use the two middle fingers to manage coins.
Also the coins are not held at extreme fingertips.
Change was completely hidden behind the fingertips.
I would buy a Hershey bar and a can of pop and offer a five dollar bill to she how the change was handled.
I also spent time watching people in a bank on the occasions I went there.

Here is an observation from Karate. The middle fingers are power fingers.
The first and little are protector fingers.
They tend to move out of the way when the middle two are doing the heavy lifting.

However, here is the most critical point. The receiving hand fingers close under the dropping hand.
This is very critical and most magicians abhor this concept.
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
Bob G
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Thanks, Al. I hadn't thought of observing how people handle money. I'll give that a try.


I wondered if you could clarify one point (the one that you said was critical)?: "The receiving hand fingers close under the dropping hand." I'm imagining moving a coin from my left hand to my right hand fingertips (really the pads, not the extreme tips). Wouldn't my right hand palm be face up at that moment? So I'm not visualizing how the fingers could close *under* the right hand. Also, why would the hand drop? I usually think of the "giving" hand as dropping, dead to the table.


I don't want to overstay my welcome; if you feel like you've spent enough time on this, I'll totally understand.


I hope all is well, and I wish you the best.


Bob
Al Schneider
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I did not explain things well.
I assume right hand moving coin to left hand.
In this the right hand carries the coin to the left and drops it into the left.
The right turns palm down as this happens.

In most of my work with transfers, the receiving hand closes around the object.

I am revisiting what I do.

I would like to offer a reason for closing my hand around the coin. However, I often do not.

????

I think I do something else.

Immediately after the transfer, the left that just caught the coin(?) wiggles the fingers as if adjusting the position of the coin.
Also, when the right hand falls to the table I move it a bit as if the hand has a nervous twitch.
The audience will notice that and hopefully cancel it from the action as a normal twitch.
Then the left hand does something unusual like tighten around the coin it is to be holding.
I hope that is seen as when the magic happened.
This is intention of magic to establish a rewind point for the audience to focus on.

I guess what I am trying to say is that the action after the transfer serves to indicate why the hand closed around the coin.

I am not sure what is right and wrong.

I do know that going over and over the move makes any move appear natural in one's natural behavior.

Recently I have started to state why I wrap my hand around something.

My most recent effort at this is to say, "If I grab this and hold it tightly something strange happens."

That seems to go well and I am keeping it.
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
Bob G
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Many thanks, Al. I appreciate your time and you commitment to teaching new magicians. I noticed that some of what you just wrote is in your published work, which you wrote, of course, when you were thinking intensively about your methods. So... I'm going to commit to going through your false transfers book, doing just a bit each day, which is all I have time for. That means that it will take me some time to get through all the reading and drills. But I don't mind waiting, given that the results will be well worth it.


Regards,


Bob
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My experience from observations such as Al's is that more people will use a take than a put when transferring small objects fro hand to hand.

Also, with objects on the table, if the objective is to get an object into the left hand, it is picker up by the left hand.
Only magicians pic with the right hand transfer to the left. so ..
you need to position containers and objects so that there is a reason for the transfer (real or fake)

The ultimate goal (opinion) is that the audience does not even remember that you changed hands.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Bob G
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That makes sense to me, Ken. There's a sort of choreography about what goes where when so that the audience doesn't think of the hand-switch as significant. ("Of *course* he had to move the ball to the other hand so he could do something else with the hand that was holding the ball.") Therefore they hardly notice the transfer, or soon forget it. Fair rewording?

Bob
funsway
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Fair for one approach, and probably enough.

Another might be to have them so engrossed in the story line that they believe what you say happened over what did. Tamariz does this well.

"To reprise, I took one ball and dropped it in the cup over there. Another ball went under this cup here."
No mention of using two hands for the drop - thus it never happened.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Bob G
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Ah, Tamariz! Can you suggest any DVD's where I can watch him doing what you describe? I've never watched him.
funsway
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On Aug 27, 2019, Bob G wrote:
Ah, Tamariz! Can you suggest any DVD's where I can watch him doing what you describe? I've never watched him.


all mine are packed for a move - some may be video tape rather than DVD. Hope others here can help with titles.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Bob G
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Okay... good luck with you move!
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