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MC Mirak Regular user 190 Posts 
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Exposure is a way for those not clever enough to invent, or be interesting on their own, to drive traffic to feed their egos. At least in my experience. This is why even professionals do it, it’s another video with another view count for their egos. It’s also why they get mad when their actions are pointed out to them.
Personally, I’m happy to pay creators for sharing their ideas and then keep the secrets to myself. It just doesn’t seem that way any more. And relevant to the original topic, it’s too easy to resell works these days, it lowers the perceived value: “Oh that book costs $175? Well I’ll probably be able to sell it for $150 if not even more, so the secrets aren’t that valuable to me.” It’s crappy but all we can do is support creators, have integrity, and try to be kind. Evidence shows that is really hard for most, unfortunately. I’m still going to try though. |
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Luke Jonas Regular user Yorkshire UK 191 Posts
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On Nov 1, 2020, MC Mirak wrote: well said. |
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts
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On Nov 1, 2020, ElliottB wrote: I couldn't agree more. Knowledge that you have to work to acquire is knowledge that you respect. One thing I would add is that exposure comes in different forms. Every poor public performance of mentalism is a form of exposure, as it robs the art of the mystery and possibility of reality that is vital. Many performances of mentalism and mentalist-derived effects on You Tube act as exposure by proxy, they are so poor. Once the whole world sees mentalism as only tricks it will be finished. |
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Dr. Eamon Inner circle ------------John Dream------------If you can Dream it, you can Do it! 1317 Posts
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On Aug 11, 2019, Martin Pulman wrote: It's VERY easy .. don't buy it if it's not worth it...  do your research and make your choice wisely.
BUT ****In the hands of a pro, most effects are worth 100 TIMES MORE, than the same effects in the hands of an amateur***** (who often wants to show a different effect every day) It's not that effects are too expensive but because suddenly half the world is a magician or mentalist and many tricks are sold as cheap gadgets for fun at every corner, or to perform once and forget about. Kind and friendly Hypnotists and Magicians sell their souls to the Devil and are exposing secrets, sometimes a few times a week (in their YouTube-'show' LOL) and generously 'give away' free magic tricks with a smile... but they are just cheap thieves, stealing the work of others... like many children reveal for fun, Chinese sites that sell copies and so on, and so on... all this doesn't do much good to this beautiful art! I agree that mentalism is no longer as special as it was 25 years ago, but you definitely CAN'T change that by making it cheaper! I would prefer to make serious mentalism (and magic) effects MORE EXPENSIVE, instead of cheaper... Buy less, work harder on your presentation, create a showpiece, and make mentalism special again 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's what I think 
Best wishes, John |
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dirtyfoucault Special user UK 698 Posts
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An interesting thread. There seem to be different motivations for publication that influence eventual pricing. As an ex-academic, I'm from a community where's there's a drive to publish for the sake of furthering the knowledge of the rather than personal profit (except in terms of professional prestige). Similarly, anyone who has published any fiction or factual work will know that no matter the huge investment of time and effort, there's a low probability of much in the way of financial return. I'm not sure any of these cultural products are necessarily of lower cultural value than the work of mentalists. So I'm really interested by these insights and justifications for high pricing trends
One question: does socialism exist in mentalism? Does anyone deliberately price low to increase accessibility for people who can't afford high prices? Just interested... |
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GlennLawrence Veteran user Randolph NJ 320 Posts
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I don't know about socialism per se, but there are some mentalists here on the Café who, from time to time, will give away free effects that they have created. So maybe.
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Philemon Vanderbeck Inner circle Seattle, WA 4696 Posts
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There are YouTubers who give away for free the secrets to effects that they didn't create.
Professor Philemon Vanderbeck
That Creepy Magician "I use my sixth sense to create the illusion of possessing the other five." |
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Dr. Eamon Inner circle ------------John Dream------------If you can Dream it, you can Do it! 1317 Posts
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On Apr 14, 2021, dirtyfoucault wrote: What is the use of a medicine that cannot cure any disease, that has absolutely no use, not even a placebo effect??? Magic is entertainment, entertaining is making people happy and making people smile (at least that's what it must be). But there is no magic, without secrets!!! And if we just give away all secrets, there is NO MAGIC. No magic, no people to entertain... ... ... no cure! And the 'social' ones who give away secrets on their YouTube channels (that are not theirs) only destroy a beautiful medicine... All to gain subscribers and money at the end. There is more than enough magic available for FREE, certainly enough to last a lifetime filled with magic! But as always, if you want to be different, or special, or unique, own special things, or high-quality workmanship and/or craftwork, all unique, different and special, then you have to work hard yourself! Then you have to be very creative and also invest A LOT OF TIME... but you can do it! For 'FREE' OR (but this is a choice) you just buy it (again, you don't have to), but the seller can ask the price he wants! There really is enough magic for free, also enough magic to get extremely cheap (books and videos) and yes there will always be expensive things... I have had a lot of problems with a manufacturer/businessman/'magician' that wanted me to sell my idea for an extremely high amount, but I wanted to give people value for money. What happened, he just stole my idea and sold a $6,00 Dollar item, for over $200,00 and many people just bought it from him, even though I warned a lot on my website. I feel sorry for this man and I know he lost a lot of friends, but unfortunately, these people that look so nice but only really care about money, will always exist! Be wise, research and invest your time wisely, because time is your most precious possession. |
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dirtyfoucault Special user UK 698 Posts
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I should maybe clarify: when I mentioned "socialism", I didn't mean to in any way endorse YouTubers etc giving away *other* people's secrets for free. There's a word for that: theft.
I was more interested in hearing from creators who themselves choose to price or share their own work in a way to maximise accessibility for members of the magic community regardless of income/wealth. Obviously a £200 book is difficult to afford if you're at a very low income level for whatever reason. (Not judging anyone who doesn't do this. We all need to put bread on the table. I'm just interested whether models for knowledge sharing exist in magic outside pure capitalism). |
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Banachek V.I.P. Houston 1086 Posts
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Have not taken the time to read all of this so maybe this has been said. Mentalism is not overpriced. If a professional and you find one 5 minute effect and it is terrific then indeed it is worth thousands since you will be making a living and a good one if you are good. The problem is there is soooooooooooooooo much f ing crap out there. This is the problem. Anyone who has come up with an idea immediately puts a price on it rather than take years or hundreds of shows to work it out, ask others if they think it is a good effect and worth selling. It has become a thing of: "Well I do not make much money performing the effect so let's see if I can make more selling it." If the answer is yes, then you are probably not a good performer and the effect you are selling is crap. Do not get me wrong, there are some who are great at creating, and horrible at performing, but they usually know it and do not try to do both for money. Yep, the bottom line is there is too much crap out there. Call me grumpy but that is how I see it. As for price, if it is good, the price keeps it away from just any performer and limits it to where the hands of those it should be getting into. Also, call me crazy but if one wants to be an illusionist your gonna pay a lot more, easily 500 grand for a fairly decent show. Part of the problem is it is too easy to publish, too easy to manufacture, too easy to put a video out. This is why we have so much crap. If someone had to invest a chunk of money to sell something, they would think twice about what they are putting out there and selling.
In thoughts and Friendship
Banachek Campus Performer of the Year two years in a row Year 2000 Campus Novelty Act PEA Creativity Award Recipient http://www.banachek.com |
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CurtWaltermire Special user Curtis The Mentalist 505 Posts
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What Banachek said.
Curtis Waltermire
Mentalist/Magician/Speaker/Actor/Grandpa/Cool Dad & Above-Average Husband CurtisTheMentalist.com YouTube Channel My Touring Public Show "The Mastermind Show" Check Out My Podcast "The Mastermind Show with Curtis The Mentalist" |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10619 Posts
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I agree completely. The problem here is most of the real workers or pros have left, and all that remains are amateurs, hobbyists, and arm-chair quarterbacks. Guess who is complaining about things being overpriced?
Of course most professional tools and resources are "overpriced" for them. This is exactly why there is such a strong low-end market for the magic/mentalism community - single effect pdfs, poorly produced videos, etc. priced accordingly to the bottom of the market. Pros are willing to pay far more without beating an eye, not because they have tons of money and can do so, but because they understand it is an investment in their business and success. Often, even if they can't afford it, they will find a way and make it happen. I'm not sure what Penn & Teller paid for Banacheck's Bullet Catch but this is how the pros work, willing to pay thousands for something that will take one of the coveted spots in their act. I truly believe one thing that separates pros from the others, isn't performance skill, but rather the understanding and mindset. Until this is understood most remain in that limited thinking and belief place. |
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kleqy Regular user 105 Posts
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You can get really lucky sometimes when you purchase a 10 dollar routine and it just gives you a lot of things to think about,and you end up doing a variation of this effect that you bought everyday and can make you a living.
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dirtyfoucault Special user UK 698 Posts
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Think we all agree there's too much crap out there. It's getting worse, driven by our strange cultural fetish for the new over quality that's been tried and tested.
On the point of pricing: value is entirely subjective. A pro's 'good value' differs from the 'good value' perceived by learners, amateurs and hobbyists. They're basically different markets. Both can be entirely right in their perspective because they often have very different motivations for investing in magic. Return on investment likely isn't on the mind of most hobbyists. Also, I've always been baffled by the sneery attitude towards non-pros. The pros of today were not always such. The pros of tomorrow are todays learners, amateurs and hobbyists. I seriously doubt magic as a community and art-form would thrive without their support (financial and otherwise). |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9987 Posts
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"A pro's 'good value' differs from the 'good value' perceived by learners, amateurs and hobbyists.
in 2006 I offered several eBooks as "Shareware" on the Café and my website. Some were Mentalism and other conjuring effects. There were 44 takers - some of them notable performers I won't embarrass here. The idea was that they would send in payment according to the value to them as a performer, but the MINIMUM agreed payment was a written response back to me about the idea, clarity of material, impact on an audience, etc. My intent was not income (always welcome), but ideas for improving my writings and future offerings, plus a better idea of what is practical today. Thus, each requester of the eBooks made a commitment to direct feedback to me plus a willingness to send money if the eBook was of value. Only 27% met their commitment for direct feedback, slightly higher from outside the USA. Of the 12 responding, 11 said they planned on performing it but sent no money. One man from Spain said he would not perform it, but the idea prompted a new effect idea for him. He send $20 in thanks. So, I question the capitalistic or socialistic suggests above, or the idea that a pro has a better idea of "value." Payment is not always cash money. This should mean that a "pro" would be willing to pay more and "be professional" about any commitment. Yeah, right! There is a hint that unless something has price tag on it there is no perceived value. Does that mean a higher price is perceived as having a higher value? For these 44 people it seems confused since any integrity was lacking for most, and "value" to them unrelated to what they paid (zero).
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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dirtyfoucault Special user UK 698 Posts
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On Apr 21, 2021, funsway wrote: Sorry, wasn't in any way meaning to suggest that a pro would somehow have a 'better' conception of value. In fact, I completely agree with your notion that 'value' doesn't have to (and possibly ideally shouldn't) be seen in monetary terms. When I was asking about 'socialism' (regrettable choice of words I now see, but couldn't think what else to call it. Kindness? Generosity? Support?) in magic above I had in mind the kind of knowledge sharing you talk about above - where ideas and information are exchanged for non-monetary rewards (feedback, input). Or just to, y'know, help other people. Because you can. Your example is a really interesting one. It negates the argument that people are willing to pay more because of the value they see in a particular piece of work. Hypothetical: if a piece of work is offered on a 'pay what you can' basis and is so good it goes into your working set, would you cough up the jundreds/thousands it proves to be worth? |
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Dr. Eamon Inner circle ------------John Dream------------If you can Dream it, you can Do it! 1317 Posts
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Some people are lazy and some pro's are clever and recreate every old trick in the book on an expencive and nice looking DVD set, AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN!!!!!
They add almost nothing new to the effects and they are called top mentalists and professionals. When I can't sleep I just have to look at one of these video's and I'm sleeping  , but the jong generations that didn't read these books think these DVD's are amazing and the 'performer' professional... LOL.
It's a strange world, expensive or cheap it all depends on how you look at it!  |
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sujetom New user 48 Posts
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I'm thankful mentalism is expensive; yes, is more difficoult to me to afford it, I connot have everything I would like; but this means, the secrets will be safer. I have a libray in my town where I can find magic related books (some of them very rare) It's not a popular libray, so I now the secrets are well kept (and they don't sell them, you can only read them there, so courious might be far away).
There's always ways to learn mentalism if you want and you work hard to find it and not spend that much money; but when you spend it, you know what you're doing. Well, it's true that they sell ****ty mentalism out there, but if you don't buy fast and furous, you will end up finding out how is the products. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10619 Posts
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On Apr 24, 2021, sujetom wrote: Absolutely. I never understood why "mentalists" here think of "learning mentalism" as buying products rather than learning skills. There are ways to learn mentalism absolutely free if one is serious as has been done for generations before the magic-mentalism boom. You've offered some good thoughts. |
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Chinmay New user 4 Posts
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I personally don't think it is a problem that mentalism is overpriced. Because mentalism is known to be, and is supposed to be an obscure art, and if mentalism books start going on the shelves of a public library, that would be real bad.
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Posted: Nov 1, 2020 09:41 pm 
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