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WitchDocChris Inner circle York, PA 2614 Posts |
If one were to go around tossing the term shaman around then yeah, they'd probably not be taken seriously.
But if one allows the concepts of shamanism to be a silent script and simply acts that way without the declarations - that's a different thing.
Christopher
Witch Doctor Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4 Boffo eBook: https://tinyurl.com/387sxkcd |
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Christopher Gould Inner circle in special pants. 1029 Posts |
I totally agree - I think I was referring to the popular craze a few years ago of people 'tossing the term around' and a lot of people (particularly in mentalism, as I recall) with some some of messiah complex.
"But if one allows the concepts of shamanism to be a silent script and simply acts that way without the declarations - that's a different thing." - absolutely.
The Moon is now to be found in the constellation of Gemini:
https://www.geminiartifacts.com |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Would they not just label it as per their own life experiences and bias?
I've asked to be banned
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Christopher Gould Inner circle in special pants. 1029 Posts |
Usually not - especially if they are having to integrate something that exists outside of their existing frame of reference.
....Thinking about this a little more (and in my experience ONLY) - I find there are two vital (and related) factors. 1. not to come over as some sort of superior being. 2. to centre the experience on the person that you are working with. i.e. you are facilitating the *possible* experiences of the members of the audience - rather than showing them you mystical powers. A great deal of this can be quite a grounded experience, in an odd sort of a way.
The Moon is now to be found in the constellation of Gemini:
https://www.geminiartifacts.com |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Yeah but Chris is saying use it as your silent script, act and behave and engage with others, using it non overtly...
So you're not saying I iz day shaman...but you're hoping others will kinda arrive at that... I don't think they will. Unless they are au fait with such things and understand what looks and sounds like a... shaman's duck? But what about the rest? I think it falls into finding a niche and then the rest is personal biases and experiences.m.. People are pattern seekers. They'll seek to join up the dots until it makes sense...or reject it if they can't.
I've asked to be banned
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Christopher Gould Inner circle in special pants. 1029 Posts |
Well, why would you want anyone to think you were a Shaman anyway?
As to the rest, I can only speak from experience, and have never found a problem in this. My aim would be to extends peoples current frame of reference, not to conform to it. If you come across as genuine and authentic, then I do not see how this would arise?
The Moon is now to be found in the constellation of Gemini:
https://www.geminiartifacts.com |
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Christopher Gould Inner circle in special pants. 1029 Posts |
For me, the focus is *always* on the experience that I am facilitating - never on the person facilitating it.
The Moon is now to be found in the constellation of Gemini:
https://www.geminiartifacts.com |
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actorcoop Veteran user 337 Posts |
I’m on the edge of my seat, frankly. I leave my computer for a day and come back to all of this! Ha!
I do agree that each mind in a community MUST have time to grow and evolve individually, BUT we wouldn’t know how our vision compares and differs if we don’t have other minds, creators, and creations to engage with. As Faulkner said: “Read, read, read. Read everything -- trash, classics, good and bad, and see how they do it. Just like a carpenter who works as an apprentice and studies the master. Read! You'll absorb it. Then write. If it's good, you'll find out. If it's not, throw it out of the window.” Genius cannot always be achieved in isolation. However- isolation and self alignment, and the ability to put the blinders on is INTEGRAL for inner-clarity. I believe the individual process is usually the second step on the way to creation. You’re right, Iain. Without working quietly with our inner center, we cannot hear our unique voice and vision. And everything that surrounds can serve as a frame, or a context, or a niche to bear in mind but not adhere to entirely. A community think space (or story space, or village square) feels very much like a lighthouse to me... free to come and go as one pleases yet there is always a light on and a place to dock. Now- onto Modern Bizarrisism. First is my bias, and then I’ll share a few thoughts: 1) personally, I don’t care for tech centered material, especially since I do believe we are craving more empathy and connection “beyond the screen”. Tech can be so helpful to elevate ones work, but I don't personally find it an engaging premise for magical performance... the only exception may be in a mediumship demonstration, where a bit of tech physically proves a link has been made and spirit is coming through... Windbridge Research Center has been doing some fascinating tests over the last few years, and they’ve discovered in one EEG study that mediums mental states are different when they’re communicating with the deceased... there’s possibility here. 2) While “shaman” shoes are definitely niche, I feel like witchdocchris is on to something. Not everyone cares or is seeking shamanic medicine or insight- but the role of the spiritual/worker is starting to resurface in the modern context. Readers and rootworkers are using social media to engage with new audiences in new ways. There’s been a recent idea that readers/healers/magicians are the new influencers of the day. Gone are the days of the old school mediums and psychics- a new type of magician has entered the scene, and people ARE engaging with magick now more than I have ever seen! I don’t believe that our audience is too far ahead- I believe that magical performers are wayyy behind the curve. I recommend getting to know some of these wonderful moderns readers, astrologers, and magicians work. Instagram is an excellent place to start. Gabriela Herstik, Marcella Kroll, Oldeways, Haus Of Hoodoo, to name a few... when I think of Modern Magick workers, these are who I think of. See what these workers do, and especially how they engage with their audience. 3) Another big piece of the Modern Bizzare puzzle may be a difficult one to discuss, but I think it’s absolutely necessary- cultural appropriation. We are left with an important task to entertain and transport people to magical, beautiful places- but audiences are increasingly recognizing that exoticism and binaried narratives can feel stale and problematic..one of the reasons why the role and aura of the Reader has shifted has been because of a conscious effort to approach the magical arts from an educated and inclusive fashion. THIS is modern. When I started meeting true rootworkers and conjurefolk, I was reflecting on how many “voodoo” routines in magic were just wrong. Inaccurate to the folk workings of those tools, and more importantly an inaccurate reflection of a culture that still holds and cherishes these practices. When we can’t be respectful to these cultures and practices in our magic, then we give our audiences no choice but to see us in a certain light- as a cheap novelty. The same goes for mentalism that is structured around methods where “women think this, and men think that.” The h*ll they do not— not modern audiences. In order to push our craft forward, we must catch up to how people are CURRENTLY engaging with wonder and magick. Audiences want to feel included and respected. We must create a safe vessel for magick to happen within. That is also the role of the magician. ... I’m sure I had other thoughts but I’ll let them unfold as we continue lol Cheers, Cooper
*I knew you were going to read this
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Christopher Gould Inner circle in special pants. 1029 Posts |
Well isn't it nice to be part of a discussion where I agree with everyone (more or less)? There is something of a novelty about this!
I share you dislike of modern technology being introduced into magic Cooper. Perhaps I am being a Luddite here, but everywhere I go I see people just blankly staring into their mobile phones. Only last week, I was walking with my wife and we were watching someone riding a bike through town- her face fixed on the glowing screen 'she is going to fall of her bike' one of us said - and sure enough, she did - but the odd thing was, that as she fell off her bike she somehow managed to keep the phone in front of her face as she fell - as if she was cataleptic. There she lay on the ground still staring at her phone - we assumed that she had hurt herself and rushed over - but before we could get over there - she slowly picked herself us and got back on her bike and rode off - not for one second did she break contact with screen in front of her face. Technology is a wonderful thing (in the right hands), it allows us to have this conversation from our various locations across the globe - it is a wonderful tool for discourse and connections - or it should be. However, to me it sometimes looks like enslavement - a false illusion of connection and a tool for superficial, unreal social discourse. As I hope for an awaking of consciousness, I see technology serving a different purpose. I'm not a great fan of mobile phone tricks!
The Moon is now to be found in the constellation of Gemini:
https://www.geminiartifacts.com |
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Christopher Gould Inner circle in special pants. 1029 Posts |
A lot of what you say here gives me food for thought. It is well past my bedtime -so I too will continue this conversation tomorrow (before retreating back into my comforting shadows!)
The Moon is now to be found in the constellation of Gemini:
https://www.geminiartifacts.com |
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cocomax Loyal user North Fork, CA 289 Posts |
What should a modern bizarre magician look like and act like?
That is easy, be yourself. The weird stuff you do should be natural and real. You should be an open and real person that people around you want to talk to and listen to. The bizarre magic should be woven into your life and as you grow and learn more you should become more and more interesting as a person. Never stop learning, never stop growing, work every day to be a little more interesting. Read, read, and read more, learn new things, not just magic, but things that are interesting and things that bring you happiness. Other things that are importing is learning how to listen to people you are interacting with, being very self aware of how you are coming across ( are you being interesting or are you being a complete bore ) What you do magic wise should fit who you are. |
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Winks Special user Arizona 753 Posts |
This whole cell phone electronic evolution is why I have rid myself of every peice of electronic gear and prop and have returned to the books and the presentation. The reason for so much decline in this as well as main stream magic is because it is no longer magic. It is far too often an electronic prop. I don't pat myself on the back in any way for getting rid of all the props; rather, I just want to enjoy what looks like real magic. Prof BC had a Phantoms presentation at the last ECSS that was just what I am talking about - pure magic. Props no longer hold any interest for me - and obviously for others - bacause of what is too easily explained by current electronics.
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
I'm not keen on magic apps etc
I don't want people to misconstrue my automatic writing thing on a phone... My point is, it's the most commonly carried object these days and it contains so much...important messages, photos and so on. There's metaphors to explore, and we should not run away from it...
I've asked to be banned
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Christopher Gould Inner circle in special pants. 1029 Posts |
The intension of my original post was to just put out my thoughts (right or wrong) about what I saw as the demise in this forum and how I feel this links to a (potential?) demise in magic as an art form. Yet - this was followed with some interesting posts making some very valid points - and it is quite exciting/encouraging to see the emergence of some deeper thinking here.
Yet, I am also sensing something else. I think there is a danger of a schism developing - between more traditional Bizarre magic and what I would term a 'New magic'. This is not to say that either are 'wrong', and I strongly suspect that a Bizarre magic forum is not the ideal place to develop the ideas that some have alluded to. I think there already exists an understanding that magic should *appear* more magical, but this is not what I am talking about, or what I suspect Cooper and (the other) Christopher refer to. I speak more of how genuine phenomena - 'authentic magic' can be incorporated into a traditional performance setting. This assumes a 'belief' (or expereince) of this authentic phenomenon, that some may not have - and that is fine. I will pitch in *a little* about what I mean, and then (probably) leave it at that. My hope is that those of a like mind find a home and do the work needed to actualise a New Magic. [I must stress that there is nothing inferior about traditional performance magic, for the purposes of entertainment. It's just different to ideas that I find myself entertaining these days]. The 'New Magic' of which I speak - is indeed 'Old Magic' - but infused with more contemporary research. I call this Authentic Magic. These ideas originated in discussions I had with Nyama Possessor - before he mysteriously disappeared [something that still concerns me greatly - so if anyone knows of his whereabouts, or indeed, if he is ok - I would really appreciate any information]. In this context we called it 'Magical Reality' (to link it with the literary tradition). Liminal Magic is a good term too. [I have spoken on this subject for some years now - but working in a vacuum has led to these ideas never really developing , beyond my own personal opinions. So, if you have heard me rumble on about this before, and fear boredom - you should turn away now!] The idea here is explore, research and employ 'real magic' - authentic phenomenon, *within* the context of a more traditional performance magic. For me - there is a lot of ceremonial clutter that surrounds what has become to be called Magick. I speak from expereince, as this is where I started, only crossing over to performance magic due to a lack of concrete results. Partly, these lack of results were my fault, as I have since validated the authenticity of such things to my own personal satisfaction. However, it was also the fault of various authors who I now suspect were living out some sort of fantasy, and knew little more than I did. A lot of what I studied back in those days were the product of people clutching at straws, or the result of me not having the space to truely understand what I was reading. It was only by stepping back - armed with the structure that performance magic had given me - that I started to look at the whole picture, and start to join the dots. I am now at the point of not only validating the authenticity of 'true magic' (to my satisfaction), but also - I am beginning to understand the mechanism behind it - or, dare I say; the physics. I must stress the word 'beginning' here, as these are really complex and challenging ideas. Sometimes, I fear that my intellect is not up to the task. This means that (casual) performance of magic is a good laboratory for testing out these theories. My fear is, as an old guy (hurtling towards his 70's - gulp!) there may not be enough time to resolve all of this - which is why I say that others need to carry the torch. Also, a lot of this is emergent thinking, not only among Magicians, but also including the more cutting edge physics and those working from a more scientific basis in ESP, the nature of consciousness, and other 'paranormal' phenomenon. (Will we see the casting way of the 'para' - in our times? - If we survive, I think this is a distinct probability). In this work, it is crucial to investigate and explore these ideas in a group - for peer review and validation - also, because the sheer amount of research, which is beyond a single person. So, why 'contaminate' this with the 'deceptive arts'. Or more fundamentally - why do it at all? I am clear about my own motivation - it is a desire to be part of the solution, rather than a part of the problem. A casual look at the world, and it is clear that we are devolving into chaos - into a society that values greed over sharing, hatred over compassion and love - fear over hope - all of these (and more) can be expressed by the single word 'connectedness'. (As I have mentioned before) we have become disconnected from ourselves, from each other, from society, and from the world that is our home. The *inevitable* result of this route is self-annihilation. As I look around, all I see is people enslaved into a system that is destroying them. On the other hand, I sense a genuine awakening of consciousness - two counterbalancing forces. I do not see this entirely from the perspective of a traditional 'new age' raising of consciousness (although I not undervalue this), but something that is emerging globally - as much in science as in meditation groups. Those who have read 'The Tao of Physics' back in the day, will know that both physicists and mystics from ancient traditions are beginning to talk of the same fundamental laws of the universe (it is also worth revisiting the Kybalion - as everything is laid out there so succinctly). 'Entertainment' is (surprisingly perhaps) a good vehicle for spreading this raising of consciousness through direct expereince. When someone has had an expereince that lies beyond their paradigm, there is no going back - and we can (with the insight and the will) touch many people. For me, magic was once something that was a route to self-gratification. Now I see it as a *potential* contribution to consciousness expansion and from there to survival of the species. I no longer have any interest in being the Great Wazoo - there are more important things that we can be doing. [I realise that I am sounding quite mad at this point, but I do not really care - the anonymity of the internet protects me!] Let us fantasise for a moment and consider that there *may* be a grain of truth in my ramblings. Would this transform magic, and what would this magic look like? Would this elevate our magic from the negativity that that is part of that which is choking us - and lead to something more valuable?... A magic that *has purpose* - a magic that had an integral *meaning*? Of course, my answer is that it would. Your opinion may differ - and that is fine. Why not just becomes a Wizard, Shaman or guru then? Why hang onto the raft of traditional performance magic? For me, there are many reasons for holding onto that rope. Firstly, people are already working in this sphere (and are better equipped for that work). Also, as mentioned before, the context of a performance means that more people can be affected in this context - and more rapidly. Also, 'entertainers' can touch people who would never entertain the idea of making contact with something that did not conform to their existing belief system - or, if they were more open minded - simply would not have that opportunity. There is a more practical reason too.... Anyone who has dabbled in real Magic (and has validation) will know that Magic is anything but predicable. It is not a tap that can be turned on (and when turned on, something more surprising than water may come out!). To get to my point - magic rarely works in a structured setting (such as a performance). Here, as with countless Mages of old - we can employ the mechanics of a trick as a 'convincer' of something genuine. Or, put better - we can use our art as a 'trigger' for what will be authentic Magical phenomena. The (inevitable?) consequence of what has been defined as Bizarre magic - is to scare people, to frighten and depress their spirits. Are people not already frightened and depressed enough? [ref: 'Darkest routines ever...' - just a few threads down]. What if instead of this, we could elevate and enlighten people - give them hope, rather than a quick scare? You may say that I'm a dreamer - but I'm not the only one. In conclusion - I think that a New Magic is needed, that it is *vital*, no only to the revitalisation of magic itself, but also to contribute to a revitalisation of the world we live in. In many ways, Bizarre magic has always been the home to more creative and open thinkers - do I think it will be the home to a new magic? Although historically, this is feasible - I doubt it. (although I hope that time proves me wrong).
The Moon is now to be found in the constellation of Gemini:
https://www.geminiartifacts.com |
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Christopher Gould Inner circle in special pants. 1029 Posts |
Let me challenge you (or some of you).
How would you produce authentic Magical phenomena - within the context of a traditional performance. Let's start there.
The Moon is now to be found in the constellation of Gemini:
https://www.geminiartifacts.com |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
More random thoughts... I'm not trying to annoy anyone! I'm just talking about a subject I used to care a lot about...
if you want a metaphysical or real thing, then become it...no need for any specially made "anything" other than traditional items within its own literature (spoken or otherwise)… just do it and live it and be it...you'll still find an audience and you'll definitely be able to make money doing it too...no need for gimmickry, sleight of hand or mouth or anything like that... before we had other language and terminology and better understanding, we had ideas, and "well, its got to be xyz!"... lets consider this... you naturally know people's moods and what are sensitive points in their life, you don't have to say a word - you just 'notice'. you are brave enough to share it with that person, and that you "sense that xyz is wrong" and they gasp! how could you know! now, that person has personal/family experience with say psychic types - and they tell you, that you are an "empath"... so you are surprised and interested...they take you along to people's houses and you maybe share what you notice and people are amazed, and you feel pressure to be kind and not fully say what you pick up...blah blah blah but, what if you had a terrible childhood and you naturally picked up the knack, dare I say skillset of being able to unconsciously detect these emotions - that doesn't make you an empath in all those people's terms. it just means you learned how to survive terrible situations on a daily basis and kinda can't help yourself as you do it... so lets say the magick is real too, what are its implications? and what are the rules? its kinda easy to say "oh its very variable" - which may be true. but why is it so wild and variable, and if so, does that contradict say, witchcraft? mix these ingrediants, do it with a good heart, say these words and cast your energy and intent along with it and it works! if there's always caveat or get out clause then I'd want to ask why...if its too much of a caveat, then why not just make a wish or toss a coin for your answer (by the way, if you do, they are really canto stones!)… what if all the things someone believes in, are just self conjoured magick, which is really a mixture of bias, wish fulfilment, belief, and self-fooling thoughts because its comforting to believe in that self conjoured magick… and what if they've come up with that magick because it helped them and now they believe it can help others too! yikes! that's a dangerous road...because there's very little means to measure the outcomes...they might smile and go yes, very helpful, and then collapse next day...we will often never know... but then if you DO know, because you're a client list kinda person - then what are your responsibilities? very often people do harm when their aim is to do good... I would guess this is a lot easier for those with the mindset of just "doing it" and its a liveable life... derek akorah died today, the scouse leather trousered psychic who was kinda famous in the uk - he was an absolute shambles, yet...consider why he was so popular... if that's the road you feel you need to tread, and maybe because you wanna help - I would consider that a massive danger sign personally... how do you deliver a pleasurable, interesting, mysterious experience without anything...and with it all tied up together with your personality...you often want to deliver an experience - one that people will understand enough to come and watch and the understand even more after its done, hoping to make them see you again or book you and so on... i'm not sure you can have your cake and eat it, which is a shame cos I like cake...but I hope there is... there's plenty in life right now that is bizarre and haunting, dare to talk about it and create some kind of magick out of it, or...create magick to take people away from the harm of it for a while... but whilst they are with you, what are you doing there? @chris - I used to really like the "I am but the conduit" kinda angle, I felt after a while, it became a little underwhelming for those watching...so how do we make a professional conduit using magick, engaging, original, and modern day? or do we stick to the capes and hats and skulls?
I've asked to be banned
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Christopher Gould Inner circle in special pants. 1029 Posts |
Iain - there are a lot of good thoughts here, and a few points that I feel compelled to answer (purely from my own standpoint - not as an edict of truth).
I want to start by saying that I am by no means an expert, more of an adventurer. These are just the findings of my experiences - the truth that we all hold is no more than that. > "if you want a metaphysical or real thing, then become it...no need for any specially made "anything" I totally agree, that is Magic in it's purest form. Perhaps what we would call prop-less magic. True magic resides within (and with a connection with the unified field...). If this is so, then there should be no need for props. I feel that this should be the 'gold standard' and what we aim for and your example speaks of the most powerful tool we have: empathy. However..... > "but why is it so wild and variable?" It would take me a LOT of words to answer that. But, it is a good question - so I will try to put something down (it makes less sense when abbreviated). To work with real Magic, you are connecting with something outside of space/time (think of, say - quantum entanglement as an illustration of the idea). This - that you are connecting to simply has no idea of distance, no idea of time - from this dimension, these things are irrelevant. On 'the Above', time and space do not exist as they do for people living solely in the material world. It's not like ordering a pizza. Things tend to materialise *when* they should. What you *want* may not be the thing you *need*. I have had quite a few 'results' to experiments, but none of them were predicable. But all of them made perfect sense in the end. This may sound like a cop out, and from your universe, it may well be. My belief - and that is all it is - is that we are all expressions of a unified field - yet when we are in a material existence, then there are several levels of what we call 'reality' - this would take a book for me to explain - but the fundamental point is that each of our 'realities' is unique to us - as you put it " bias, wish fulfilment, belief, and self-fooling thoughts" - as you know, we all live there at some level. Alternatively, *if* these beliefs include a unified field of existence on a metaphysical plane - then this field is constant and not delusional - and genuine contact with this will lead to awakening, rather than delusion. This said, your point is a good one. There is always a constant danger of 'ego contamination', and we have more than one example of this in magic! With study and experience, I think (but cannot *know*) that it is fairly easy to feel (and profoundly so) when something is authentic. Am I self-delusional here? Maybe. It is impossible to say when the question is looked at from a material perspective. Count how many psychoanalysts are themselves in need of therapy, or how many marriage guidance consultants come from failed marriages, how many magicians are sorely in need of magic. It is certainly not a question to dismiss. So - if the unified field of magic is irrational from a material standpoint - if the rules of space time doe not apply, then this is why we sometimes need techniques that 'real' Mages have used since the dawn of time. This is why (for me) what we used to call 'a trick' (in the old days!) can be a mechanism for focusing and triggering a Magical event. That is all it would be (in this context) - a trigger - the 'real work' is what is done with what it triggered. (in my many years of expereince now - this is the very thing that most magicians ****-up - or rather, are no aware of). I have thought (and written) a great deal on this - many years wresting with this subject and experimenting with it. Still, in the enormity of this, I am still no more than a baby sucking its thumb. One safeguard to the psychological contamination to which you speak - one that I find useful -even if you as a practitioner are damaged (and we all are, to a greater or lesser extent) is to take the focus from the ego of the performer and place it in the expereince of the other. This is something that I feel is difficult for many magicians (and I do not exclude myself from this). > "derek akorah died today..." ...Not my role model. Seriously though, these people do unimaginable damage. Not only to anyone that come into contact with, but to a serious study of these things. However, thinking about it - is that true? Akorah and his like are entertainers. I am sure that most people would put them in this category, and not take them seriously at all. The danger comes from people 'playing with fire' and messing with something they do not understand - then inflicting this on other people. I have lost count of the awful things I have seen when an amateur 'psychic' (or even a magician doing a 'psychic effect') plies his or her 'art'. > "How do you deliver a pleasurable, interesting, mysterious experience without anything..." Well, that is the key question, and a focus of research for anyone contemplating restoring a 'New Magic'.... > "so how do we make a professional conduit using magick, engaging, original, and modern day?" I honestly do not think that this is that hard - I find that people are totally engrossed when such things are presented to them - it would surprise me if anything else were true. Perhaps it is a matter of context? When you dig into these things, they are enormously complex and deep, I feel sure that I have failed in answering the good points that you have made adequately.
The Moon is now to be found in the constellation of Gemini:
https://www.geminiartifacts.com |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
I would disagree about your "they are entertainers" about the fry, akorah, stokes guys...
I think they are taken very seriously by many people... As for the rest, hmmmmm 🤓
I've asked to be banned
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
I've asked to be banned
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Hopefully my hmmm didn't read as disrespectful...I was just hmmming cos I'm not sure how to reply 👍
I've asked to be banned
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