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Aus
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Quote:
On Aug 25, 2019, Ray Pierce wrote:
I would hypothesize that one key ingredient for any group or "community" to survive and flourish would be shared respect. If I seen an amateur at any level that shows respect for the craft and respect for the more experienced, I well help them in any way. On the other hand, If that respect isn't there, I have no desire to give away knowledge or experience to anyone just because they perceive themselves to be a "peer".


But lets not forget there are many reasons one gains and loses respect. Respect isn't a right and it is earned and lost under many pretexts. There is a immensely experienced magician that posts here often and I have no respect for simply because he wealds his experience in a self righteous and arrogant fashion to belittle and look down on others and has no tolerance for disagreement or criticism constructive or otherwise. That has nothing to do with his magic ability but rather his interpersonal skills and how he treats others.

I often find that these guys get a free pass in the decent human bring department because of the experience they hold as if experience gives them a free pass. Well in my moral code book it doesn't, and if that means I have to lose opportunity's with people like you Ray so be it, I'd rather be hated for who I am then loved for who I'm not.

Magically

Aus
tommy
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The best advice a full-timer ever gave part-timers was simply: “Don’t! It’s like a fashion model trying to be rugby forward.”

Full-timers work hard, spending hours on end studying and putting into practice what they know every day and over time they become successful. While part-timers spend hours on end doing something else for a living, etcetera.

Part-timers as a whole though spend millions on their hobby and that is one reason full-timers sell the secrets of magic in one way or another.

So there is not really a community but rather two communities: like Sharps and Flats.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
ryanshaw9572
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[quote]On Aug 27, 2019, tommy wrote:
The best advice a full-timer ever gave part-timers was simply: “Don’t! It’s like a fashion model trying to be rugby forward.”

Full-timers work hard, spending hours on end studying and putting into practice what they know every day and over time they become successful. While part-timers spend hours on end doing something else for a living, etcetera.

Have you seen Drew Backenstoss’ Penguin Live ACT Lecture? If not, I recommend you watch it. He is a part-time mentalist, yet is just as high caliber as someone like Marc Paul. There’s a difference between a part-timer and a hobbyist.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Aug 27, 2019, Aus wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 25, 2019, Ray Pierce wrote:
I would hypothesize that one key ingredient for any group or "community" to survive and flourish would be shared respect. If I seen an amateur at any level that shows respect for the craft and respect for the more experienced, I well help them in any way. On the other hand, If that respect isn't there, I have no desire to give away knowledge or experience to anyone just because they perceive themselves to be a "peer".


But lets not forget there are many reasons one gains and loses respect. Respect isn't a right and it is earned and lost under many pretexts. There is a immensely experienced magician that posts here often and I have no respect for simply because he wealds his experience in a self righteous and arrogant fashion to belittle and look down on others and has no tolerance for disagreement or criticism constructive or otherwise. That has nothing to do with his magic ability but rather his interpersonal skills and how he treats others.

I often find that these guys get a free pass in the decent human bring department because of the experience they hold as if experience gives them a free pass. Well in my moral code book it doesn't, and if that means I have to lose opportunity's with people like you Ray so be it, I'd rather be hated for who I am then loved for who I'm not.

Magically

Aus


So without meeting anyone in person, you have a full interpretation of their character based only on some things written on the internet? It would seem a well rounded "moral code book" might allow that the internet itself is not a very personal medium in which to communicate and that if you met them in person things may be different.

You are making a sweeping judgement about who someone is. Yes you have a glimpse of it, but it is a keyhole you are looking through is all. It seems a bit unfair, but it is your choice needless to say. Please understand my main point is that all tone in writing on the internet is put there by the reader and it IS possible that you are adding tone that might not be correct and then assigning that to the poster. In many cases you may be right, but in at least some you might be wrong.

Also I will add that if one is trying to join a group, he is the one who it is incumbent upon to impress people enough to join. If "respect" for an opinion that is only a year old is required or their feelings are hurt then it seems as if a little more bending on that person might be in order.

To your point YES respect is a two way street. No doubt. Yes yes yes I agree. BUT I think there is more to it than you have added here.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Aus
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Quote:
On Aug 27, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 27, 2019, Aus wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 25, 2019, Ray Pierce wrote:
I would hypothesize that one key ingredient for any group or "community" to survive and flourish would be shared respect. If I seen an amateur at any level that shows respect for the craft and respect for the more experienced, I well help them in any way. On the other hand, If that respect isn't there, I have no desire to give away knowledge or experience to anyone just because they perceive themselves to be a "peer".


But lets not forget there are many reasons one gains and loses respect. Respect isn't a right and it is earned and lost under many pretexts. There is a immensely experienced magician that posts here often and I have no respect for simply because he wealds his experience in a self righteous and arrogant fashion to belittle and look down on others and has no tolerance for disagreement or criticism constructive or otherwise. That has nothing to do with his magic ability but rather his interpersonal skills and how he treats others.

I often find that these guys get a free pass in the decent human bring department because of the experience they hold as if experience gives them a free pass. Well in my moral code book it doesn't, and if that means I have to lose opportunity's with people like you Ray so be it, I'd rather be hated for who I am then loved for who I'm not.

Magically

Aus


So without meeting anyone in person, you have a full interpretation of their character based only on some things written on the internet? It would seem a well rounded "moral code book" might allow that the internet itself is not a very personal medium in which to communicate and that if you met them in person things may be different.

You are making a sweeping judgement about who someone is. Yes you have a glimpse of it, but it is a keyhole you are looking through is all. It seems a bit unfair, but it is your choice needless to say. Please understand my main point is that all tone in writing on the internet is put there by the reader and it IS possible that you are adding tone that might not be correct and then assigning that to the poster. In many cases you may be right, but in at least some you might be wrong.

Also I will add that if one is trying to join a group, he is the one who it is incumbent upon to impress people enough to join. If "respect" for an opinion that is only a year old is required or their feelings are hurt then it seems as if a little more bending on that person might be in order.

To your point, YES respect is a two-way street. No doubt. Yes yes yes I agree. BUT I think there is more to it than you have added here.



How many times have you passed judgment on a person or thing with incomplete information? Sometimes incomplete information is all we have to pass judgment on. Is that a reflection of my codebook or a reflection of the circumstance in which we find ourselves in? If we passed judgments only when all the facts were available 100% of the time I'm guessing a vast amount of judgments would never be made. Does that mean my judgments are always morally virtuous and right? No, not at all, and I'm happy to concede on that point and make amends to judgments when situations and information require it. But it's interesting to point out that even criminal courts don't have a 100% expectation of having all the information, that's why the expectation is "beyond any reasonable doubt" rather than "beyond any doubt"

Now in saying that, is this an excuse to make ill-informed decisions? Of course not. Just because all the information isn't available doesn't mean that your efforts to gain all the information should be lacklustre and not beyond your most diligent efforts. As to whether one is the other I guess is a matter of personal opinion.

As to the point of tone and interpretation, I agree that context is often lost and can be easily inferred by the reader rather than by the poster. That's why I often observe things for a period of time to help establish that context. If I see others interpret the same words differently I will take pause to reassess my perspective, if on the other hand others interpret them in the same way as I have then I'll maintain that my interpretation as the correct one.

I guess this is where ones metric for what is subjective and whats objective comes into play.

For me, subjectivity is defined when a judgment or a point of view is rooted entirely in ones individual perspective of the world or situation. In doing so we signal that we suspect that the judgement probably doesn't take into account all the facts available, and rise above the personal viewpoint.

Objectivity, however, is a judgment made on all available and relevant data, disregards personal prejudice and finds agreement with other competent and informed people, under these circumstances we say judgment is then objective.

At the end of the day though, in my life experience, disrespectful behaviour is more often overt rather than covert in a majority of cases and the equivalent of a skunk walking through your living room, which is something that's pretty hard not to notice.

Magically

Aus
Dannydoyle
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I will also say that the whole "you offended me" thing has gotten out of control. Being offended in no way makes one right. This has not been true of late. Lately in our society one is offended therefore correct. It has become ridiculous.

Offended is VERY subjective and has everything to do with you. Respect is often very close to the same thing. What one may consider "respectful" in giving the unvarnished truth, another will be offended by. You may not like the style with which the truth is dispensed, but does this make it less truthful? Or less respectful? In reality no. Respect is not something given in words I am sorry to say. Not wasting your time (The ONE thing in the universe you can not possibly get back.) with a lot of flowery language to some IS respectful. Putting one on the right path, even though they may not like it IS respectful to some.

Then add in the tone with which one who is offended adds and you have a witches brew for misunderstanding.

I am not trying to change your world view. You have come to it and are right. I am not arguing to change anything you think about how you think. I am only opening a door to how others may think is all.

Be well.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
ryanshaw9572
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It’s rare to find a person aware of all fallacies, aware that they may have been primed, or conditioned to think a certain way, aware of confirmation biases. Opinions shouldn’t be argued, just shared. Facts can be argued, but only with facts, not opinions, which we like to share. Uninformed debate is popular today as the pace of the world gets faster, so does the pace of dialogue.

I recommend reading Mastermind: How to Think Like Sherlock Holmes by Maria Konnikova for a masterclass on objectivity.
tommy
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I recommend patter for subjectivity and magic for objectivity, in the golden ratio.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
critter
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Look at Steinmeyer's books and essays. Performance magic as far back as the Victorian age was rife with cutthroat competition and all of the theft and dirty dealings that went with it. Advance a few decades and the magic shop was the cornerstone of the community with exclusive backrooms. Now that people in general interact far more online so do magicians.
Information also travels fast now, as others mentioned. ebooks exist.

Personally, I've never liked the politics but I value the friendships I've made by interacting with those who share this strange interest.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers


"This I offer in explanation of how it was that I found myself in my undergarments as I sat in my cell attempting to plot my escape."
~Professor Phineas Valeyard, Miskatonic University Dept.of Psychodynamic Natural History.

New Facebook Page:
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critter
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Another thought...
There has always been an abundance of information, but there's a lot of BAD information. There's so much that seems free on the internet but how much of it is useful?
Discerning what is usable for yourself is an individual pursuit. See also- Ricky Jay.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers


"This I offer in explanation of how it was that I found myself in my undergarments as I sat in my cell attempting to plot my escape."
~Professor Phineas Valeyard, Miskatonic University Dept.of Psychodynamic Natural History.

New Facebook Page:
https://www.facebook.com/Valeyard-Magic-Stage-233226717588438/
tommy
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Bad information is very useful to the good magician: firstly the good magician offers his audience that which they know is bad information and then by an experiment he proves it is good!
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Jonathan Townsend
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Bad information makes good patter for tricks.

Ricky Jay is gone but there are people in magic who've made their own way.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
critter
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I think part of Jay's genius was finding things others had overlooked and presenting them really well. He also benefitted from a community of great mentors while also isolating himself from those who he felt did more harm than good.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers


"This I offer in explanation of how it was that I found myself in my undergarments as I sat in my cell attempting to plot my escape."
~Professor Phineas Valeyard, Miskatonic University Dept.of Psychodynamic Natural History.

New Facebook Page:
https://www.facebook.com/Valeyard-Magic-Stage-233226717588438/
tommy
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Like Vladimir Lenin, the magician said, "You must have your entertainment on fire and your experiment on ice."


Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
critter
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This one is a great example of the "bad information" as excellent patter concept y'all were talking about.

https://youtu.be/aMT7_GaApOk
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers


"This I offer in explanation of how it was that I found myself in my undergarments as I sat in my cell attempting to plot my escape."
~Professor Phineas Valeyard, Miskatonic University Dept.of Psychodynamic Natural History.

New Facebook Page:
https://www.facebook.com/Valeyard-Magic-Stage-233226717588438/
tommy
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As the Rockefeller Club of Rome pointed out, people need an enemy to unite them: In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea of the threat of Global Warming to fit the bill.

The natural enemies of the legitimate magicians are the charlatans. If therefore magicians are going out to form a union then let it be the Death to the Charlatans Union.

You are either with us or you are against us.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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