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Martin Pulman
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Paid a visit to Tannen's in NYC the other day and was amazed to see they are blatantly exposing the 100th Monkey principle by having two cards openly displayed on their counter top.

Standards really are slipping.
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To be fair, didn't the 100th monkey principle first appear as a viral optical illusion on the internet featuring a photo of Marilyn Monroe and Albert Einstein?

If so, it was "exposed" long before anyone thought of using the technique as part of a magic trick.
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Quote:
On Sep 22, 2019, Philemon Vanderbeck wrote:
To be fair, didn't the 100th monkey principle first appear as a viral optical illusion on the internet featuring a photo of Marilyn Monroe and Albert Einstein?

If so, it was "exposed" long before anyone thought of using the technique as part of a magic trick.


To be fair, Chris Philpott took a clever optical illusion and made it into words and into something far more potent and henceforth unseen & unique. He created something brand new.

To be fair, I agree more with Martin that this should not be exposed openly other than to buyers.
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Martin Pulman
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Quote:
On Sep 22, 2019, saysold1 wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 22, 2019, Philemon Vanderbeck wrote:
To be fair, didn't the 100th monkey principle first appear as a viral optical illusion on the internet featuring a photo of Marilyn Monroe and Albert Einstein?

If so, it was "exposed" long before anyone thought of using the technique as part of a magic trick.


To be fair, Chris Philpott took a clever optical illusion and made it into words and into something far more potent and henceforth unseen & unique. He created something brand new.

To be fair, I agree more with Martin that this should not be exposed openly other than to buyers.


I find it incredible, Brett, that anyone who loves our art would think otherwise.
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I was just at Tannen's two weeks ago and "To be fair" (since everyone else seems to be), I didn't even notice it was there. "Exposure" is a connotatively heavy word - Tannen's is still one of the world's best brick and mortar magic shop with a great staff. What did they say when you spoke to them about it?
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To be fair, Martin and Brett's points are more than fair. Why should the secret be revealed to anyone other than buyers of the effect?
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Alan M
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On Sep 23, 2019, Stunninger wrote:
To be fair, Martin and Brett's points are more than fair. Why should the secret be revealed to anyone other than buyers of the effect?


That’s a fair question.
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If I had marketed my HooDoo boxes in such a place I'd be upset if they were exposing the innerworkings of my product. That's just me.
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Martin Pulman
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Quote:
On Sep 23, 2019, Dr. JK wrote:
I was just at Tannen's two weeks ago and "To be fair" (since everyone else seems to be), I didn't even notice it was there. "Exposure" is a connotatively heavy word - Tannen's is still one of the world's best brick and mortar magic shop with a great staff. What did they say when you spoke to them about it?

If you didn't notice the 100th Monkey cards they either hadn't been put on display two weeks ago or you aren't very observant. They are front and centre in the glass cases.

"Exposure" is a very simple word in magic terms. It means ''publicly revealing the secret of a magic trick'. By having 100th Monkey cards on display, Tannen's are exposing the secret of that effect to anyone who walks into the store. An incredible misjudgment.

To be fair, the way magic and mentalism secrets have been devalued in recent years I'm not surprised some people are coming on here to defend Tannen's exposure of a creator's work. It seems to be 'anything goes' these days.
Dr. JK
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So what did the staff say when you pointed it out to them? I'm interested in their response.
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Martin Pulman
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Quote:
On Sep 24, 2019, Dr. JK wrote:
So what did the staff say when you pointed it out to them? I'm interested in their response.

If you are interested in their response, give them a call. My private conversations will remain private.
Dr. JK
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Quote:
On Sep 24, 2019, Martin Pulman wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 24, 2019, Dr. JK wrote:
So what did the staff say when you pointed it out to them? I'm interested in their response.

If you are interested in their response, give them a call. My private conversations will remain private.


Smile It doesn't feel very private with a public post accusing Tannen's of exposure....

I know you wouldn't do this, Martin, but some people would post on the Café for attention without doing the right thing and taking up their grievance with the staff first. I was just wondering what you said to them and if they thought of it the same way as you, but it seems like you're reluctant to share what you said.
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Martin Pulman
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Quote:
On Sep 24, 2019, Dr. JK wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 24, 2019, Martin Pulman wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 24, 2019, Dr. JK wrote:
So what did the staff say when you pointed it out to them? I'm interested in their response.

If you are interested in their response, give them a call. My private conversations will remain private.


Smile It doesn't feel very private with a public post accusing Tannen's of exposure....

I know you wouldn't do this, Martin, but some people would post on the Café for attention without doing the right thing and taking up their grievance with the staff first. I was just wondering what you said to them and if they thought of it the same way as you, but it seems like you're reluctant to share what you said.


Spare me your nonsense.

Tannen's are publicly exposing the secrets of a magic trick in their store. I'm publicly exposing them on a magic forum for doing so. That's normally what happens when people expose magic secrets -their exposure is discussed on the Café.

I will always stand against magic exposure and will feel free to discuss it on the Café, regardless of your opinion on the matter. It's bad enough kids and on YouTube exposing secrets; it's sad indeed to see Tannen's joining in.
kissdadookie
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Quote:
On Sep 24, 2019, Martin Pulman wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 24, 2019, Dr. JK wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 24, 2019, Martin Pulman wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 24, 2019, Dr. JK wrote:
So what did the staff say when you pointed it out to them? I'm interested in their response.

If you are interested in their response, give them a call. My private conversations will remain private.


Smile It doesn't feel very private with a public post accusing Tannen's of exposure....

I know you wouldn't do this, Martin, but some people would post on the Café for attention without doing the right thing and taking up their grievance with the staff first. I was just wondering what you said to them and if they thought of it the same way as you, but it seems like you're reluctant to share what you said.


Spare me your nonsense.

Tannen's are publicly exposing the secrets of a magic trick in their store. I'm publicly exposing them on a magic forum for doing so. That's normally what happens when people expose magic secrets -their exposure is discussed on the Café.

I will always stand against magic exposure and will feel free to discuss it on the Café, regardless of your opinion on the matter. It's bad enough kids and on YouTube exposing secrets; it's sad indeed to see Tannen's joining in.


Though it's in bad taste, I still don't find them to be as offensive as let's say, Fantasma selling a lost deck routine with the deck that they've basically pass off as their own instead of selling the actual Lennart Green release (Stolen Cards). I'm not exactly sure that what Tannen's did here is exposure to the gen pop but rather possible exposure for people that already knows what the 100th monkey is and what it can be used for (in other words, potential customers). On one hand, exposure is most certainly exposure, on the other hand, Tannen's do tend to sell products better when they tip the workings of products (I've seen them demo in person plenty, so it's most certainly a sales tactic that they do employ, depending on the person demo'ing). In other words, them exposing things I have seen work to the advantage of the creator/publisher of the effect as it ups the chances of them selling the item to a customer (I bought Narcissus pretty much immediately after they showed me the principle and how it worked, I'm n=1 of course, but I've seen plenty of customers come through their doors having things exposed to them and them then pretty much immediately picking up the item that was just exposed to them).
Martin Pulman
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On Sep 24, 2019, kissdadookie wrote:

Though it's in bad taste, I still don't find them to be as offensive as let's say, Fantasma selling a lost deck routine with the deck that they've basically pass off as their own instead of selling the actual Lennart Green release (Stolen Cards). I'm not exactly sure that what Tannen's did here is exposure to the gen pop but rather possible exposure for people that already knows what the 100th monkey is and what it can be used for (in other words, potential customers). On one hand, exposure is most certainly exposure, on the other hand, Tannen's do tend to sell products better when they tip the workings of products (I've seen them demo in person plenty, so it's most certainly a sales tactic that they do employ, depending on the person demo'ing). In other words, them exposing things I have seen work to the advantage of the creator/publisher of the effect as it ups the chances of them selling the item to a customer (I bought Narcissus pretty much immediately after they showed me the principle and how it worked, I'm n=1 of course, but I've seen plenty of customers come through their doors having things exposed to them and them then pretty much immediately picking up the item that was just exposed to them).

In which case, Magic stores should be free to leave Celebrity Presage or MOABT on open display to be examined by anyone who wanders in. They should take their wallets out of the glass cases and leave them around for casual passers by to play with them and discover their secrets. Just put their magic books on normal shelves and allow people to read them. Maybe supply some chairs, like normal book shops. After all, as you say, everyone who comes in is a potential customer.

Why shouldn't someone who comes in to buy some beginners magic tricks for their kids learn the 100th Monkey secret while they're browsing?
kissdadookie
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Quote:
On Sep 24, 2019, Martin Pulman wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 24, 2019, kissdadookie wrote:

Though it's in bad taste, I still don't find them to be as offensive as let's say, Fantasma selling a lost deck routine with the deck that they've basically pass off as their own instead of selling the actual Lennart Green release (Stolen Cards). I'm not exactly sure that what Tannen's did here is exposure to the gen pop but rather possible exposure for people that already knows what the 100th monkey is and what it can be used for (in other words, potential customers). On one hand, exposure is most certainly exposure, on the other hand, Tannen's do tend to sell products better when they tip the workings of products (I've seen them demo in person plenty, so it's most certainly a sales tactic that they do employ, depending on the person demo'ing). In other words, them exposing things I have seen work to the advantage of the creator/publisher of the effect as it ups the chances of them selling the item to a customer (I bought Narcissus pretty much immediately after they showed me the principle and how it worked, I'm n=1 of course, but I've seen plenty of customers come through their doors having things exposed to them and them then pretty much immediately picking up the item that was just exposed to them).

In which case, Magic stores should be free to leave Celebrity Presage or MOABT on open display to be examined by anyone who wanders in. They should take their wallets out of the glass cases and leave them around for casual passers by to play with them and discover their secrets. Just put their magic books on normal shelves and allow people to read them. Maybe supply some chairs, like normal book shops. After all, as you say, everyone who comes in is a potential customer.

Why shouldn't someone who comes in to buy some beginners magic tricks for their kids learn the 100th Monkey secret while they're browsing?


We've heard this argument before. We've heard it when the Masked Magician was popular. Did that actually hurt the magic industry (it is a industry)? No.

There's also this thing called the public libraries. It's an entire building filled with publicly peruse-able books and plenty of chairs and tables to sit at whilst reading and sometimes you can find actual magic books in there. There's also the fact that there are magic books available for the public to peruse on the Library of Congress since they have been scanning original copies for archival purposes. https://www.loc.gov/resource/rbc0001.2010houd11604/?sp=1

Or the fact that virtually every magic shop I've actually stepped foot in has allowed me to relatively freely handle the products and peruse books when they are not shrink wrapped. Maybe because they know me but still, the point you're trying to make is one of principle of the matter so my example applies.

There's also the fact that just because you learned/know a method, it doesn't really mean that you are equipped to perform the effect using the method. Either due to lack of having the required props or simply because all you know is a method with no purpose thus knowing the method is effectively useless.

Btw, I'm partially agreeing with you that perhaps shops should be more secretive with secrets, but at the extent I've seen what you have described practiced (and I've seen it practiced pretty prolifically apart from the Marvin's Magic demo station at places like FAO Schwartz and prior to that Toys R Us, but they are selling to the gen pop rather than magicians so their marketing ploy is in fact the actual secrets for the sake of secrets since that draws curiosity which entices people to buy the products) I don't necessarily think it's something to *** a shop over.

Let's bring it back full circle and look at the Café. Many a times a criticism that is lobbed at releases is the lack of transparency and customers typically are more receptive and buy more from dealers and creators whom are transparent with what they are selling and in a lot of cases it usually does entail revealing a whole lot about the secret (like many of Jaoa's electronic releases which is a prime example, like the Spector Touch, I wish people had better access to the actual gimmicks to play around with and try out on themselves because I think that would actually produce a lot more sales than if they contemplated the purchase in the dark about what they are receiving).

Other examples:

Fool Us
Much of Penn & Teller's career (or this great little bit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3vTld5pNlI ).

I think that one of the best written opinions on this topic (the topic of having access to knowledge you did not personally acquire and own nor did you pay for obviously) would be something Ricky Smith wrote not too long ago:

https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/blog/o......sson-407

I think that is the approach that we should actually take rather than constantly fearing exposure. People know all kinds of secrets far and wide, do they do much of anything with the secrets that they know? Usually no, it's more of a collector mentality and the satisfaction comes from knowing rather than using the knowledge thus exposure in the context we are discussing it here in the topic, it can be problematic but mainly more on the crediting and rewarding the creator side of things rather than the exposure ruining magic as a whole because people know how things are done (as we saw with the Masked Magician, it really doesn't affect the market/industry as a whole). For that, I think we should think moreso about promoting the idea of rewarding creators for their work out of principle rather than this fear of exposure which is mostly inconsequential.
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To say that we, as performers, should ever shrug our shoulders at any aspect of exposure because it's common is absurd.

Our profession runs on secrets and is maintained (hopefully) by performers who treat these secrets with respect. Penn and Teller are reprehensible creatures...and so is any other bottom feeding nerd/shop/performer who exposes the secrets that are not theirs to expose. By this I mean that if you've developed your own method/prop, by all means feel free to join the other jerks on YouTube who expose secrets. But if it's not your creation? Shut up and treat it with the respect it deserves.

Very happy (and a little sad) that Martin brought this to our attention.

David
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Martin Pulman
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Thanks David. I'm glad some people still get it -and care.
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