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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Exposure by Tannen's (16 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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kissdadookie
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On Sep 30, 2019, David Thiel wrote:
To say that we, as performers, should ever shrug our shoulders at any aspect of exposure because it's common is absurd.

Our profession runs on secrets and is maintained (hopefully) by performers who treat these secrets with respect. Penn and Teller are reprehensible creatures...and so is any other bottom feeding nerd/shop/performer who exposes the secrets that are not theirs to expose. By this I mean that if you've developed your own method/prop, by all means feel free to join the other jerks on YouTube who expose secrets. But if it's not your creation? Shut up and treat it with the respect it deserves.

Very happy (and a little sad) that Martin brought this to our attention.

David


What if what you developed is also what you are trying to sell and thus that is your means of profiting from your work, by selling it through a store like Tannen's. What if this exposure actually helps increase the sales? If the purpose is to sell as many units as possible and a great marketing ploy is to also expose it somewhat because the method is so interesting that knowing it is itself a selling point, is the retailer still a bottom feeder? We are talking about products that are in the store for the sole purpose of hoping that it can be sold and the more sold equates to you being more successful at the reason you marketed it in the first place, how do with square that? I'm not necessarily pro or con either philosophy, but just wondering how one would square that if ideology conflicts with purpose (ideology being keeping the secret is of utmost importance whilst purpose being you marketed the item to sell as many of them as possible).

Perhaps you would not allow for that with your own releases but this comes down to a per individual and per release basis does it not?

Also, are P&T truly that reprehensible? After all, look at the amount of exposure they have given to the magic community in terms of positively impacting public perception of magic. Not to mention the vast partnership they've had with Johnny Thompson that one can argue has benefited the community as a whole. It seems like the conflict here is that you have a disagreement of philosophy which is of course completely fair and perfectly reasonable (agree to disagree is a thing after all), but what I'm really getting at here is what exactly is the objectively tangible negative impact here because if we look at the totality of the industry, exposure does not appear to ever impact the industry either that of the performer or those that are in the retail side of things. It's really an interesting question imo.
David Thiel
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You raise some interesting points. I believe that an effect belongs first to the person that created it. When he/she sells it to the community, the secret is actually what is being sold...just like back in the old magic days. In that case I believe it is up to the creator -- and whatever agencies he chooses to market the effect through to respect and protect the secret.

I know Chris P and I very much doubt he gave his permission for his creation to be displayed in this manner. I also would doubt that his bottom line is to see as many units sold as possible. Of course we all expect to make coin on our books and creations. But that's not the ONLY reason we develop them. There's a powerful desire to help the community along in any way possible. Does the community respect the creations and the books written? Sometimes. But the "community" has gotten so large and grown so fast with the aid of the internet that old standards are being thrown away and our most private things are being dragged into the light and exposed.

Exposure is NEVER okay. Never. Not by anyone. That includes P&T -- who are beneath contempt, on the same playing field as the snotty little jerk who posts his pathetic exposure videos on YouTube while sitting in a lawn chair in is mom's basement.

It surprises me that exposure on any level is even a matter of debate.

David
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.


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WitchDocChris
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Devil's Advocate: "Exposure on any level" includes every product in the magic industry.
Christopher
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IAIN
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Eternal Order
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Pretty much all online magic shops expose the sw*mi as an example...

always thought the easiest way is just put up a password before you see the images...

though saying that, too many people password protect their site but also give it away in the same breath...

go figure...
I've asked to be banned
WitchDocChris
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You'd be surprised how many people can't figure out a password that's right in front of them.
Christopher
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Eternal Order
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Dunno if I would!

But if it works, then...good!

We shouldn't have to hand hold...
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Martin Pulman
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Quote:
On Oct 2, 2019, IAIN wrote:
Dunno if I would!

But if it works, then...good!

We shouldn't have to hand hold...


A bit of hand holding is surely permissible? Even after 40 years I still have to stop and figure out how many 'n's' there are in Anneman...Anemann...Annemman....

Let's call him Ted.
kissdadookie
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Quote:
On Oct 2, 2019, Martin Pulman wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 2, 2019, IAIN wrote:
Dunno if I would!

But if it works, then...good!

We shouldn't have to hand hold...


A bit of hand holding is surely permissible? Even after 40 years I still have to stop and figure out how many 'n's' there are in Anneman...Anemann...Annemman....

Let's call him Ted.


Same problem I've had when that's the password. Every time. LoL.
Mr Salk
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Magic Shop perusers are generally potential buyers.
If an effect is complicated enough to build or print, then perhaps a hint at the modus is acceptable.
Exposing partial secrets in a store to magicians who'd have to shell-out to actually perform an affect is a far cry from juvenile youtube knobs.
.


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Martin Pulman
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Quote:
On Oct 2, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Magic Shop perusers are generally potential buyers.
If an effect is complicated enough to build or print, then perhaps a hint at the modus is acceptable.
Exposing partial secrets in a store to magicians who'd have to shell-out to actually perform an affect is a far cry from juvenile youtube knobs.

In what way does having 100th Monkey cards on open display constitute revealing "a partial secret"? It exposes -entirely- the secret of the effect. What's "partial" about it?
Mark Timon
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Come on, grow up. In which century are you living? No one gives a damm about the secrets of mentalism . If someone really were interested, they will find out anyway. Concentrate your efforts in making your show more than a bunch of clever routines. Mentalism is a performing art.
Mr Salk
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Quote:
On Oct 2, 2019, Martin Pulman wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 2, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Magic Shop perusers are generally potential buyers.
If an effect is complicated enough to build or print, then perhaps a hint at the modus is acceptable.
Exposing partial secrets in a store to magicians who'd have to shell-out to actually perform an affect is a far cry from juvenile youtube knobs.

In what way does having 100th Monkey cards on open display constitute revealing "a partial secret"? It exposes -entirely- the secret of the effect. What's "partial" about it?


I'm not specifying a particular trick. In the space and context of selling magic the exposure is contained to magicians with purchase-power. Nobody eats the samples at Costco and goes home to make the dishes from scratch. Well, normal people.
.


.
kissdadookie
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Here's a further question. What about our magic apps? You know, the professional calibur ones many of us have purchased and have been using. Such as Wikitest as well as the Stranger? The method is obviously the app. The ad-copy basically gives anybody who reads it all they need to know as to how the effect works (you use the app, the app is literally the method). We obfuscate the method by presentation. So wouldn't the Narcissus cards on display at Tannen's be the equivalent of this? Essentially it's security via obscurity. For the apps one would have to know what to search for. For Narcissus at Tannen's, one would need to know Tannen's exists and go into the store and hope that it's there to see it. They would also need to know what they are looking at or else it's nothing other than a cool optical illusion. Like you need to be in a situation where you need to nail something to realize what a hammer and nails are for. Both examples (app and Narcissus) demonstrate exposure of method but without context and both are hidden via obscurity. Actually, come to think of it, the apps do give context since the description tells you what it is Smile

I actually have always had a problem with the magic apps having very clear and explicit descriptions and have used them with the thought of I hope this thing is buried in the app store all the way on the very bottom of all the free to play games, etc. in the app store.
Mr Salk
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Retailers need to move product.
They've already paid the creator for the units, so the hard-fact is the creator has no further input in the transactions.
.


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