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Dannydoyle
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I can see where one may think of the internet as more dangerous than a loaded firearm. I disagree, but I can see the point.

BUT much like a firearm the internet is an inanimate object. It does not need to be engaged any more than a firearm needs to be handled.

I don't see that it has more of a negative impact than anything that came before it. Certainly the invention of gunpowder has caused orders of magnitude more death and destruction than the internet can ever hope to compare to.

I do respect the point of view, and I do thank you for coming back to share it a little bit more clearly. I disagree completely but it certainly is a perspective to keep in mind.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
R.S.
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Quote:
On Oct 15, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Correct. It is cut and dry. NOBODY mentioned a child with a loaded gun, except you.

I will reiterate my response to your question since you seem to be having trouble.

Question: "So just so I understand, are you of the opinion that a PC running the internet is more dangerous than a loaded gun?"

Answer:"100%"

See Ron? Or do you still want to pretend I said anything about children handling weapons unattended.



I never said nor implied that YOU brought up the hypothetical with the child - I DID. Based on the implications of your 3 statements. As I said, I was just trying to see which hypothetical situation would cause you more discomfort, given your statements. That's all. When someone says emphatically that a PC running the internet is more dangerous than a loaded gun (in concert with your other statements), it's not unreasonable for one to wonder how that person would react to the hypothetical that I posed. And you still haven't answered that very simple question. Instead you keep strawmanning my hypothetical and now falsely accusing me of attributing my own hypothetical to you.

But hey, no need to persist if the hypothetical makes you uncomfortable.


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
Jonathan Townsend
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Some people imagine viewing porn, some imagine a move benevolent watchful eye. You get to choose what you look at.
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magicfish
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Of course it makes me uncomfortable.
I hope it makes anyone uncomfortable. A child with a loaded gun unattended? How do you not see how preposterous this is?
Your first comparison was simply a loaded gun. It could be in my basement for sixty years while the internet whirs away in the background. Who knows what negative impacts the internet could have on society in that 60 years. But the loaded gun is safe and sound in my home.
But you didn't like that. So you put it in the hands of a child. Unattended.
You did what you always do.
TomBoleware
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I agree that the internet is bad in many, many ways, especially for children and some adults. It’s easy to be removed from the real world on the internet.

But there are also many good things about the internet. We have never had so much instant information at our fingertips like we do today.

I personally can see more good in it than bad, but maybe that’s because I use it that way.

Tom
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Jonathan Townsend
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@magicfish: https://rws511.pbworks.com/w/file/fetch/......amus.pdf

The question is older than Apollo vs Dionysus. In todays language a choice between truth of experience and hive truth. The hive has done very well for much longer than our species has been around. Choose wisely. There's a modern (though clumsy) fable in David Egger's book "The Circle". A less clumsy fable may be found in Bruce Sterling's story "The Swarm".

So, can we discuss levers? Archimedes posts on /b/

*Pascal's counteroffer: There could be infinitely many large, powerful and communicative creatures who claim a relative divinity. So rather than choose the wrong one and in so doing offend the right one...
...to all the coins I've dropped here
magicfish
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Quote:
On Oct 15, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
I can see where one may think of the internet as more dangerous than a loaded firearm. I disagree, but I can see the point.

BUT much like a firearm the internet is an inanimate object. It does not need to be engaged any more than a firearm needs to be handled.

I don't see that it has more of a negative impact than anything that came before it. Certainly the invention of gunpowder has caused orders of magnitude more death and destruction than the internet can ever hope to compare to.

I do respect the point of view, and I do thank you for coming back to share it a little bit more clearly. I disagree completely but it certainly is a perspective to keep in mind.

And as I said Danny, I liked Ron's original analogy about the guns. As I said, both are tools that can be used for good or bad. Which is worse? Some may say the gun, some may say the internet. Fair.
R.S.
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Quote:
On Oct 16, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Of course it makes me uncomfortable.
I hope it makes anyone uncomfortable. A child with a loaded gun unattended? How do you not see how preposterous this is?


What's "preposterous" about that hypothetical, given your stated positions? And besides, what does the degree of "preposterousness" of a hypothetical have to do with addressing it??


Quote:
Your first comparison was simply a loaded gun. It could be in my basement for sixty years while the internet whirs away in the background. Who knows what negative impacts the internet could have on society in that 60 years. But the loaded gun is safe and sound in my home.
But you didn't like that. So you put it in the hands of a child. Unattended.


Yes. Because it's MY hypothetical! I didn't know that this was the "only ask Magicfish the questions he wants to be asked" thread. You emphatically stated that a PC running the internet is more dangerous than a loaded gun. It's not unreasonable for one to then wonder whether you would be more uncomfortable leaving your 10 year unattended with a PC logged into the internet or with a loaded gun on the table. So can you answer that simple question?? Or will you do what YOU always do? And by the way, there's no right or wrong answer here. Just trying to assess your priorities in light of your stated positions. But hey, if you don't want to answer, just say so.


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
magicfish
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Ok. Fair enough.
My answer is to mitigate all immediate/imminent danger to children as quickly as possible. If a child is in immediate danger, the last thing I'm pondering is whether the long bow or agriculture or the lever or technology is harmful over the long run to society.
I'm not sure how anybody could feel any different. Which is why I feel it isn't relevant to the discussion and in no way reflects on a stance pertaining to said discussion.
But hey, it's your hypothetical.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Oct 16, 2019, magicfish wrote:
...to mitigate all immediate/imminent danger to children as quickly as possible. ...
Then wouldn't a sensible first step be to address the "unattended" part of the hypothetical?
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magicfish
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Why? Why is there an unattended child holding a lethal weapon Jon?
Jonathan Townsend
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Huh? I'd start with "unattended".

Anyway - please - back to how you decided the internet was worse than school buses or some other item we live with?
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magicfish
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Your cherry pick was both ineffective and uncharacteristic.
Try reading my entire post.
Jonathan Townsend
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Please, what, in your opinion, makes the internet so bad for humanity you think of it as worst?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
magicfish
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As I stated earlier, "...it is probably not quantifiable and it is subjective. Maybe it would be easier to deal with specifics- at least superficially so we can cover more of them ." 
So, I feel it is bad because of any and all bad that it either causes, promotes, popularizes, propagates,or facilitates. 
I feel it is the worst because I feel the negative impacts of the internet outweigh the negative impacts of anything that has come before it. 
We touched on bullying and some great points were made all round. Do you suggest another sub topic?
magicfish
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Since you won't, I will. We did bullying, how about fraud or Identity theft?
My good friend is professor of Cyber Security at a local university. I've heard him speak on the matter and it seems to me that the internet is the favourite tool for fraudsters and scam artists.
Like bullying, it has always existed, but it has expanded globally and exponentially in the internet age.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Oct 16, 2019, magicfish wrote:
As I stated earlier, "...I feel it is the worst because I feel the negative impacts ..."


Oops Smile I'm sorry. I missed that where you clarified your statement. Thank you for repeating your clarification.
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Jonathan Townsend
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In my opinion the internet itself is neither good nor bad. And we already have laws against incitement, libel, slander, blackmail etc. What's left is our ethos - how we treat each other. A child could wander onto a highway, into an unsupervised swimming pool or onto the internet.

So, here we are, just a click away from the latest news from the White House: https://twitter.com/hashtag/TrishRegan?s......rc%5Etfw
or from a fine scan of Charles Darwin's Origin of Species, Plato and Aristotle... a great exercise in free will. What do we choose?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
R.S.
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Quote:
On Oct 16, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Ok. Fair enough.
My answer is to mitigate all immediate/imminent danger to children as quickly as possible. If a child is in immediate danger, the last thing I'm pondering is whether the long bow or agriculture or the lever or technology is harmful over the long run to society.
I'm not sure how anybody could feel any different. Which is why I feel it isn't relevant to the discussion and in no way reflects on a stance pertaining to said discussion.
But hey, it's your hypothetical.


OK, so I take that to mean that in my hypothetical you would consider the source of "immediate danger" to be the gun (correct me if I'm wrong). And thanks for the clarification. The short-term vs long-term distinctions weren't made clear in your statement that "a PC running the internet is more dangerous than a loaded gun." But I think I get your meaning. Thanks again.

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
magicfish
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Be careful with those quotation marks. I didn't make that statement.
But yes, with 4 billion-ish people on line 24 hours a day, I would imagine that more crimes , or deaths, or suicides, or murders, thefts, grand larceny, extortion, abuse, infidelity, crooked gambling, human trafficking, illegal pornography, treason, espionage, torture, pet ransoms etc, happen per second, than any loaded gun would in its lifetime.
Just a hunch based on math.
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