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magicfish
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^^^ not my best composition, I hope you get my meaning.
gallagher
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Back to the original Post.
Greg's computer crash had nothing to do with,...'the Internet' (!).
It was,..is,..a problem with his computer,
,.his computer's programming,..from Apple.

The internet did not cause, multiply, or add in any way to his problem.

Gallagher

p.s.: I am no longer going to drive on the Autobahns,
because my Pirelli tyres have gone flat,
after adding more air to them.
....hmmm? 🤔
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Oct 16, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Since you won't, I will. We did bullying, how about fraud or Identity theft?
My good friend is professor of Cyber Security at a local university. I've heard him speak on the matter and it seems to me that the internet is the favourite tool for fraudsters and scam artists.
Like bullying, it has always existed, but it has expanded globally and exponentially in the internet age.


Here is where your argument runs a bit aground. While yes the internet is the favorite tool for this, in most cases the wound is at least partially self inflicted.

People put so much information on Facebook it is sickening. A thief used to have to dig through garbage for MONTHS to find less than the amount of information about someone they put on their home page much less blog about. You can not blame the tool when the craftsman is an idiot.

They tell you where they live, when they are at work, give you pictures WHILE they are on vacation! All of which people used to have timers on lights so nobody knew.

So to me while things may have gotten worse or easier, it is only because of people not the internet. As such I do not think it entirely fair to put red in the ledger of the internet because people are dumb. I do not think you can ignore this factor.

Yes there are people who are victims who have done all they can to avoid the crime. Also I never blame victims. I am only saying that using it as evidence of the worst thing to happen to mankind maui be a bit overstated is all.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
magicfish
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Great point Danny, and I agree with you. A long time friend of mine is a surveillance expert specializing in insurance claims.
This guy has spent 30 years hiding in stairwells, wearing disguises, following on public transport, you name it, he's done it.
And he gets great footage of able bodied people who are on claims for debilitating injuries.
Now, he works from home. Why? Because everything he needs to know about a person is right there for the taking. Their plan for the day, where they are going, who with , how they'll get there and what route they'll take. What they will eat and where. And when they will be home and where there home is.
He has all their info.
They'll even upload videos of themselves carrying a 25 lb turkey or throwing their kids in the air. He just clicks a mouse and sends the report.
So they make it easy for him like you say.
Where I disagree with you is that my argument runs aground. Without the internet, there is no facebook for all the gullible people to be scammed by the fraudsters.
Is it the gullible peoples' fault for putting all ther info up? Sure. But the internet allows for such platforms.
Fraudsters love the internet because the Marks love the internet.
The common thread?
The internet.
Before it, the crooks had to work a bit harder. More phone calls, more letters, more meetings, more travel etc.
magicfish
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I welcome more counterpoints. So far we've done bullying and fraud/I.D. theft. Like harrasment/bullying, I think it is more rampant in the internet age. Or at least greatly facilitated by mass access to personal information via the internet or the criminal activity of hacking databases to access tens of millions of peoples personal information via the internet.
Looking forward to more sub topics.
Again these are just my opinions and I'm enjoying the discussion.
Mr Salk
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I reckon the societal and social ills of the internet can also classify it as Worst for Humanity.

Humans are losing their sense of space and direction due to GPS.
Courting and dating and human interplay are bypassed by hookups.
Trivia and common-knowledge have been outsourced to Google.

I sincerely believes the brains of digital-natives are evolving differently because the Internet is a massive crutch.
.


.
Dannydoyle
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It wasn't too long ago some thought stupidity was caused by a lack of information. The internet has sortb of proven the exact opposite is true.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
R.S.
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Quote:
On Oct 17, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Be careful with those quotation marks. I didn't make that statement.


Correct, you didn't make the statement - sorry for the mixup. I should have replaced the word "statement" with "admission". Or something like that.


Quote:

But yes, with 4 billion-ish people on line 24 hours a day, I would imagine that more crimes , or deaths, or suicides, or murders, thefts, grand larceny, extortion, abuse, infidelity, crooked gambling, human trafficking, illegal pornography, treason, espionage, torture, pet ransoms etc, happen per second, than any loaded gun would in its lifetime.
Just a hunch based on math.


I see your point. I don't agree that the internet is a bigger bane to humanity than the gun, but I get what you're saying.

In this country alone, approximately 32,000 people die each and every year as a direct result of guns. Many more are injured/incapacitated by guns. And yet many more are robbed/threatened/abused at the hands of someone toting a gun. Then there are the deaths/injuries inflicted by all the guns in all the wars. You'd have to match or exceed those figures, AND you'd have to show causation, not just mere correlation, in order to make a case that the internet is worse for humanity. Furthermore, many of the ills that you ascribed to the internet are probably aided and abetted by... guns!! Particularly suicides and murders.

And lastly, there is the upside of the internet, which I think greatly outweighs any negatives. But that's my two cents.

Thanks Magicfish.

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
tommy
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The internet only has an inside. It is not like the Matrix.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
magicfish
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Quote:
On Oct 17, 2019, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 17, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Be careful with those quotation marks. I didn't make that statement.


Correct, you didn't make the statement - sorry for the mixup. I should have replaced the word "statement" with "admission". Or something like that.


Quote:

But yes, with 4 billion-ish people on line 24 hours a day, I would imagine that more crimes , or deaths, or suicides, or murders, thefts, grand larceny, extortion, abuse, infidelity, crooked gambling, human trafficking, illegal pornography, treason, espionage, torture, pet ransoms etc, happen per second, than any loaded gun would in its lifetime.
Just a hunch based on math.


I see your point. I don't agree that the internet is a bigger bane to humanity than the gun, but I get what you're saying.

In this country alone, approximately 32,000 people die each and every year as a direct result of guns. Many more are injured/incapacitated by guns. And yet many more are robbed/threatened/abused at the hands of someone toting a gun. Then there are the deaths/injuries inflicted by all the guns in all the wars. You'd have to match or exceed those figures, AND you'd have to show causation, not just mere correlation, in order to make a case that the internet is worse for humanity. Furthermore, many of the ills that you ascribed to the internet are probably aided and abetted by... guns!! Particularly suicides and murders.

And lastly, there is the upside of the internet, which I think greatly outweighs any negatives. But that's my two cents.

Thanks Magicfish.

Ron

I don't want to debate guns, but youd have to show that all "deaths/injuries inflicted by all the guns in all the wars." Are all negative before I would have to "match numbers".
Internet has upside, guns have upside, wars have upside, disease has upside, forest fires have upside, natural disasters have upside.
Besides, I wouldnt try to match any numbers regardless. The internet is relatively new and I don't see it ending.
P.s. many of the ills that you ascribed to guns are probably aided and abetted by... the internet!! Particularly suicides and murders.
R.S.
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Quote:
On Oct 17, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 17, 2019, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 17, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Be careful with those quotation marks. I didn't make that statement.


Correct, you didn't make the statement - sorry for the mixup. I should have replaced the word "statement" with "admission". Or something like that.


Quote:

But yes, with 4 billion-ish people on line 24 hours a day, I would imagine that more crimes , or deaths, or suicides, or murders, thefts, grand larceny, extortion, abuse, infidelity, crooked gambling, human trafficking, illegal pornography, treason, espionage, torture, pet ransoms etc, happen per second, than any loaded gun would in its lifetime.
Just a hunch based on math.


I see your point. I don't agree that the internet is a bigger bane to humanity than the gun, but I get what you're saying.

In this country alone, approximately 32,000 people die each and every year as a direct result of guns. Many more are injured/incapacitated by guns. And yet many more are robbed/threatened/abused at the hands of someone toting a gun. Then there are the deaths/injuries inflicted by all the guns in all the wars. You'd have to match or exceed those figures, AND you'd have to show causation, not just mere correlation, in order to make a case that the internet is worse for humanity. Furthermore, many of the ills that you ascribed to the internet are probably aided and abetted by... guns!! Particularly suicides and murders.

And lastly, there is the upside of the internet, which I think greatly outweighs any negatives. But that's my two cents.

Thanks Magicfish.

Ron

I don't want to debate guns, but youd have to show that all "deaths/injuries inflicted by all the guns in all the wars." Are all negative before I would have to "match numbers".
Internet has upside, guns have upside, wars have upside, disease has upside, forest fires have upside, natural disasters have upside.
Besides, I wouldnt try to match any numbers regardless. The internet is relatively new and I don't see it ending.

P.s. many of the ills that you ascribed to guns are probably aided and abetted by... the internet!! Particularly suicides and murders.


If we agree that death, pain, and suffering are generally bad things, then the gun can be directly tied to those things much more than the internet can. The best you've done is to posit that the internet can (possibly) be a contributing factor in some cases. There's not much in the way of direct causation. I'm sure there are far more coroner's reports listing the cause of death as "bullet wound" than "internet".

You'd have to squint pretty hard to see the "upside" of disease, natural disasters ("disaster" is part of the term!), wars, and forest fires. The upside of guns is debatable as well. But even if we grant whatever upside they may have, it still doesn't come close to the upside of the internet, imo.


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
Dannydoyle
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Natural disasters often have upside. Swamp fire for one. But they are natural and sort of fall into the get over it category. Firearms and the internet are self inflicted. I think they parallel better.

If you think you are going to come close to eliminating death and pain get ready for disappointment.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
S2000magician
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Quote:
On Oct 18, 2019, R.S. wrote:
I'm sure there are far more coroner's reports listing the cause of death as "bullet wound" than "internet".

That's pretty disingenuous, and, frankly, a lot more callous than I'd have expected from you.
magicfish
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"If we agree that death, pain, and suffering are generally bad things, then the gun can be directly tied to those things much more than the internet can. The best you've done is to posit that the internet can (possibly) be a contributing factor in some cases. There's not much in the way of direct causation. I'm sure there are far more coroner's reports listing the cause of death as "bullet wound" than "internet". 
Once again, nothing to do with causation. You are on this gun thing. And that's fine, but again it is purely subjective. You think guns are worse for humankind than the internet. You've given some relatively small numbers about deaths or injuries per year in a certain country.

"You'd have to squint pretty hard to see the "upside" of disease, natural disasters ("disaster" is part of the term!), wars, and forest fires. The upside of guns is debatable as well. But even if we grant whatever upside they may have, it still doesn't come close to the upside of the internet, imo."
Remember any and all negatives of something,anything, that is 3-4 billion strong and growing is going to have a massive impact on human life.
Nolan Ryan had the most strikeouts but doesn't he also have the most walks?
Golden Retrievers account for the most dog bites on humans.
Just sheer numbers of course.
Weak analogies but you get my point.
magicfish
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R.S. wrote: "You'd have to match or exceed those figures, AND you'd have to show causation, not just mere correlation, in order to make a case that the internet is worse for humanity."
I disagree, but you're entitled to your opinion.
magicfish
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I found this to be an interesting read

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10........1211404
Jonathan Townsend
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Agreed. Interesting. I'm not sure that's the best source for research or statistics.
https://www.tandfonline.com/story-behind-August-2019
What made you want to research zebra?

Ever since I read ‘How the Leopard Got His Spots’ in Kipling’s Just So Stories at bedtime when I was about four, I have wondered what zebra stripes are for. In the many years we spent living in Africa, we were struck by how much time zebras spent grazing in the blazing heat of the day and felt the stripes might be helping to control their temperature in some way.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
magicfish
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Stay with us Jon. You're safe here. They cant hurt you anymore. Now sip this herbal tea and have a lie down and have lovely dreams about your special zebras.
When you wake, we can get back to the discussion. Looking forward to some input from a refreshed Jon.
Mr Salk
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Quote:
On Oct 18, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Ever since I read ‘How the Leopard Got His Spots’ in Kipling’s Just So Stories at bedtime when I was about four, I have wondered what zebra stripes are for. In the many years we spent living in Africa, we were struck by how much time zebras spent grazing in the blazing heat of the day and felt the stripes might be helping to control their temperature in some way.


Zebra Stripes shuffle the heard so the Cheetahs can't find the 2 of Clubs.
.


.
Jonathan Townsend
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Same site, same quality of writing and research. Yes I deflected away from the article about crime and deviance facilitated by the internet. Figured the discussion about zebra stripes would be less toxic - fewer links to abuse and easier to examine for quality.

Anyway, folks would advance their causes more quickly by exploring levers, asymmetry, presumed inviolables...

Retailers complain about people looking at product at their showrooms but then buying online at better prices.

* He sees you when you're sleeping. And he knows when you're awake. He knows if you've been bad or good...
** And if you're good maybe you can have the latest from Apple: https://boingboing.net/2019/10/18/new-ap......noi.html
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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