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TomBoleware
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Danny, how many small towns have you lived in? Most still have newspapers, and yes it is published online too.
Most all have a facebook page too that will mention special events. And certainly all the members of the group would
plaster facebook announcing the event

But anyways,
Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
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Mindpro
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Quote:
On Oct 22, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Mindpro,

What do you mean by little or no experience? I find it funny how you love telling people they can’t do something that they have already done.

Again, I am NOT talking about Kaplan's system...and now please stop trying to discredit something you know absolutely nothing about.
Post your better way or shut up.

Tom


As usual, you chime in with something, not the same as being discussed. Then you try to twist what IS being discussed into something you think you had experience in decades ago. I too am not talking about Kaplan's or anyone else's fundraising. What KC, thomasR Danny, and myself (everyone here but you) are talking about is 4-walling (and not locally) - which I know and am confident that you have never done. This is obvious in this thread and others by what you say, mention, and claim to be experienced. Not the same thing, sorry. Not trying to discredit what you've said as it has nothign to do with the actual topic being discussed.

I am glad you admitted to your distraction. What you are talking about is a COMPLETELY different business model than what is being discussed in this thread. No one ever said anything about a fundraising, partner or as you call it "sponsor" (incorrect term) business model (except you) or any other business models other than what the OP originally suggested.

And also just to inform you, fundraising itself has changed immensely in the last 20-25 years, especially entertainment fundraising, making what you are talking about to apply even less even if used with a fundraising business model.

I believe KC is being quite intelligent asking for real-work information from those that have done or are doing what he is interested in doing himself. Not other's opinions or theories or something not the same from years ago.

We're glad you said your piece as a point of reference. We can call it a "suggestion" as you did, even if not really applicable to 4-walling in the truest sense of the definition. I will say this it will only be fun if you enjoy the business side of the equation. It is about much more than the actual performance or show.

I agree with KC about the significance of smaller or medium markets as a great opportunity if you know what you are doing. The exact thing you stated as negatives, I have found (and continue to still find) a great benefit and opportunity. KC, despite Tom's well-wishes of good luck, you need knowledge and strategies and proven techniques based on the right and proper business model.

I agree with Danny as to a fundraising business model. You are going to get anyone to do much of the work without them receiving a great if not majority amount of the profits, let alone trusting your entire success to a group of people you don't know, that don't know your show, or the business behind it.

KC, here are just the first 7 the keys to this type of venture:

- Having the proper knowledge of this type of entertainment business model
- Negotiating the best possible deal on the main 5 components to this type of production model
- The proper funding or seed money (advance money)
- Having the right, specific type of show - A PAC or better quality of show AND operation
- You must know how to minimize or eliminate risks
- You must have multiple sources of income in the model
- Must understand the difference between performing local shows and a traveling, tour or road production

There are many more but these are the first to consider, learn and know. Without these, you are assured to lose money and perform to a predominantly empty house.

Just as much of knowing what TO DO is knowing and understanding what NOT TO DO - AND WHY?

It is not easy, which is why more performers aren't doing it, and those that do find the majority fail. Please understand, I am not discouraging you but giving you the truth, reality and My single piece of advice is easy, it would be to take the time to learn everything needed for this business model, to do this with minimal risk, and your best chances for success - as you said from the beginning.

I personally would advise you not to do this the way you are thinking, as there is a better option to attain what you are seeking.

Hopefully, now we can stay on topic and learning can occur. I am seeing more and more members returning to the Café after leaving or absence, and some new members joining consistently. We do not need distractions and off-topic derailments, they are here or have come back to learn and not be part of teh old nonsense that has been cleaned up.
Mindpro
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Quote:
On Oct 22, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
You are going to get anyone to do much of the work without them receiving a great if not majority amount of the profits, let alone trusting your entire success to a group of people you don't know, that don't know your show, or the business behind it.


Meant to say you are NOT going to get anyone...
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Oct 22, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Danny, how many small towns have you lived in? Most still have newspapers, and yes it is published online too.
Most all have a facebook page too that will mention special events. And certainly all the members of the group would
plaster facebook announcing the event

But anyways,
Tom


Does Merriam Woods Missouri count for 10 years? Does Key Largo count? Wonder Lake Illinois? Sounds like at least 3. How about you?

Any more derailments from the world's foremost authority or can we actually get information out?

Oh wait let me guess. One of your imaginary friends told you to do this again right?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Mindpro,

We are NOT talking about doing your normal fundraising event. How many times do I have to say that for you to understand? So please stop saying it is a bad idea when you have no idea what
you are talking about. KC has already said he didn’t want to go in and work with a large group of people. So nobody is suggesting he do a full fundraiser as you know it.

I’m simply saying he should consider tying in a local group somehow in the town that he is working. By the way, when we say small town we mean there are a limited amount of people in that town.
The odds are already against having a big turnout, especially for a mentalist or hypnotism show. I can see a kid/family type show working in a small town but I personally think it will be very
hard to pay rent on a 4 wall deal with a hypnotism show alone week after week.

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
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thomasR
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Quote:
On Oct 22, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
[
KC, here are just the first 7 the keys to this type of venture:

- Having the proper knowledge of this type of entertainment business model
- Negotiating the best possible deal on the main 5 components to this type of production model
- The proper funding or seed money (advance money)
- Having the right, specific type of show - A PAC or better quality of show AND operation
- You must know how to minimize or eliminate risks
- You must have multiple sources of income in the model
- Must understand the difference between performing local shows and a traveling, tour or road production

There are many more but these are the first to consider, learn and know. Without these, you are assured to lose money and perform to a predominantly empty house.



So...... let's tackle this list shall we?

1- - Having the proper knowledge of this type of entertainment business model

In order to even begin that the actual model has to be decided correct? KC are you wanting a small theatre show or a "Parlour" show the way Dennis Watkins and Steve Cohen do? I personally believe the venue should be as much of an appeal as the show itself. That can be a historic theatre, historic hotel, or other unique location. But back to mindpro's #1... I'm sure he will (somewhat rightfully) disagree with me but I think the business model for touring shows changes so quickly it's difficult to ever have a true knowledge of how it works. I've been on national concert tours with management and agents that have decades of experience and the show just doesn't sell for one reason or another. To say these people don't have the proper knowledge would be silly. My personal thoughts are come up with a business model... try it out on a small scale and see what works and what doesn't and adjust it from there.

2 - - Negotiating the best possible deal on the main 5 components to this type of production model

Care to share what you feel the 5 components are? I'm guessing... 1. booking the venue. 2. marketing. 3. routing the tour. ???

3 -- The proper funding or seed money (advance money)

Yes. This is important. Be prepared to lose every cent the first go around. Things will cost more than you expect... and less people will come than you hope. If you are not in a situation where you can lose that amount of money, don't do it.


That's a good place to start....
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Oct 23, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Mindpro,

We are NOT talking about doing your normal fundraising event. How many times do I have to say that for you to understand? So please stop saying it is a bad idea when you have no idea what
you are talking about. KC has already said he didn’t want to go in and work with a large group of people. So nobody is suggesting he do a full fundraiser as you know it.

I’m simply saying he should consider tying in a local group somehow in the town that he is working. By the way, when we say small town we mean there are a limited amount of people in that town.
The odds are already against having a big turnout, especially for a mentalist or hypnotism show. I can see a kid/family type show working in a small town but I personally think it will be very
hard to pay rent on a 4 wall deal with a hypnotism show alone week after week.

Tom


YOU are the one who said he had to do all that work!

My God stop.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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[quote]On Oct 23, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Mindpro,

We are NOT talking about doing your normal fundraising event. How many times do I have to say that for you to understand?

I’m simply saying he should consider tying in a local group somehow in the town that he is working.

Tom [/quote

We know exactly what you are saying - no need to keep repeating it again and again. It wa spoor advice the first tie and hasn't changed based on his specific inquiry.

Once again, YOU have no idea what you are talking about. YOU first mentioned him partnering with someone, and most would never do it without some kind of cut or profitability, which is why fundraising was mentioned. You led things in that direction, no one else.

But I agree, take fundraising and partnering off the table and discussion, which I said earlier, and let's focus on what he was specifically asking and inquiring about.

Also, no one said anything about any residency show week after week. He is talking about a traveling show, not a residency production the way I understood it based on his terms (unless he used the wrong terms.) Which of course takes a Cohen-type show out of the discussions, and that too would entail a different business model than a traveling show going to a different small-town location each week or however often he desires to do it.
Dannydoyle
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Thomas you can do EVERYTHING right and regardless of what Tom says you can indeed lose money. I agree with you.
But you will lose MORE if you don't know these things. This is also true.

There is a very simple formula to end up with a small fortune doing these things.

Step 1. Start with a large fortune.
Step 2. 4 wall your own show.

You end up with a small fortune. Simple.

The problem is that KC is not in the best position to learn this. The reason is he has no need to worry about funding. When you can write checks with little consequence often the lessons go unlearned. Being hungry and needing success more than fun can help shorten the learning curve some. It also changes drastically what you are willing to do in order to be successful.

I don't say this will happen to him or say it as some sort of criticism. I point it out only as one of the many pitfalls I have seen in doing this sort of thing for 30 plus years. Not from sitting on my couch farting into the same cushion for my entire life. Not having done it for only a couple years.

No Tom. Not all opinions are created equal.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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Quote:
On Oct 23, 2019, thomasR wrote:

So...... let's tackle this list shall we?

1- - Having the proper knowledge of this type of entertainment business model

In order to even begin that the actual model has to be decided correct? KC are you wanting a small theatre show or a "Parlour" show the way Dennis Watkins and Steve Cohen do? I personally believe the venue should be as much of an appeal as the show itself. That can be a historic theatre, historic hotel, or other unique location. But back to mindpro's #1... I'm sure he will (somewhat rightfully) disagree with me but I think the business model for touring shows changes so quickly it's difficult to ever have a true knowledge of how it works. I've been on national concert tours with management and agents that have decades of experience and the show just doesn't sell for one reason or another. To say these people don't have the proper knowledge would be silly. My personal thoughts are come up with a business model... try it out on a small scale and see what works and what doesn't and adjust it from there.

2 - - Negotiating the best possible deal on the main 5 components to this type of production model

Care to share what you feel the 5 components are? I'm guessing... 1. booking the venue. 2. marketing. 3. routing the tour. ???

3 -- The proper funding or seed money (advance money)

Yes. This is important. Be prepared to lose every cent the first go around. Things will cost more than you expect... and less people will come than you hope. If you are not in a situation where you can lose that amount of money, don't do it.


That's a good place to start....


Well, no before any business model is decided it has to be clearly determined what specifically he is seeking to do and how. Then a business model is created for that foundation he decides based on his choice of the many options and variables. This is why I said education and knowledge of what he is seeking needs to be defined and determined first. A business model won't even come in or serve any purpose until then.

This is also why, just like in most other aspects of entertainment business, the proper sequential order is of most importance. Also I have produced live music venues and concerts for decades and the business model for music is different than that for variety performances. Many aspects appear the same but are much different.

"Parlour" is a magician's term. My first bit of advice to him or anyone seeling this type of venture is to lose the magician's thinking and mentality. To operate at this level, especially with multiple show offerings, you need to operate as an entertainer not a magician, and most entertainers or those you work with don't deal in "parlour" anything unless you are the Munsters of course (or are dealing with magic clubs, magic stores, or specific magic venues. Not to mention even for magicians, it is extremely hard to profit from "parlour" shows, ESPECIALLY on the road.

I'm not sure of what you are thinking, but no I have used the same business model for traveling shows for 35 years, and I know it was used back in the Vaudeville and touring days by headlining acts for generations. So I am not sure what model or part of has changed? Curious to know your thoughts on this.

#2. No, sorry other than of course the best deal with the venue the others you mention were none of what I was referring to. Lol, no I won't share the 5 components I was referring to, sorry.

#3. I agree with some of this but again, here is where minimizing risk can greatly come into play. Yes, just like when being diagnosed with advanced or aggressive cancer or a serious operation, med staff will tell you to prepare for the worst and hope/pray for the best. I would suggest the same here too. I can see why you would say to be prepared and it is not poor advice, but more practical as not to set one up for false expectations or surprises.
thomasR
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Quote:
On Oct 23, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
"Parlour" is a magician's term. My first bit of advice to him or anyone seeling this type of venture is to lose the magician's thinking and mentality. To operate at this level, especially with multiple show offerings, you need to operate as an entertainer not a magician, and most entertainers or those you work with don't deal in "parlour" anything unless you are the Munsters of course (or are dealing with magic clubs, magic stores, or specific magic venues. Not to mention even for magicians, it is extremely hard to profit from "parlour" shows, ESPECIALLY on the road.



That's silly... a "Steve Cohen style hotel show" is also a magicians term. I was calling it a parlour show because that describes a style of show many magicians are doing right now. In the music business it would be a coffee shop style show.

I've honestly never heard anyone other than magicians use the term "4-wall." I've always heard it referred to as "self-promote." But to be fair... the "self-promote" definition I've heard is specifically a one night or week run at the most.
thomasR
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"I'm not sure of what you are thinking, but no I have used the same business model for traveling shows for 35 years, and I know it was used back in the Vaudeville and touring days by headlining acts for generations. So I am not sure what model or part of has changed? Curious to know your thoughts on this."

First of all... the "business model" from Arrested Development just popped in my head so I'm laughing.

Maybe you know the secret then. I've been on the bus with some high level managers discussing ways to change the touring business model for artists on their roster.
Dannydoyle
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Vegas uses the term 4 wall regularly. 2 wall also. So does Chicago, New York and most comedy clubs back in the 90s. I can't imagine you have missed it.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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The first thing that has changed is the role of the advance man. You also don't go into town and give them the nut off your wagon wheel for seed money.

I mean are you exaggerating when you say you think nothing has changed? I'm not trying to be obnoxious, I'm trying to see if you understand a great many things have changed.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
thomasR
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Quote:
On Oct 23, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Vegas uses the term 4 wall regularly. 2 wall also. So does Chicago, New York and most comedy clubs back in the 90s. I can't imagine you have missed it.


I'm sure that's true but yes I have missed it. But I've never worked in those towns or in comedy clubs. I'm sure it's used a lot in Branson and Pigeon Forge as well.

*I've done lighting for shows in NYC and Chicago.. but not anything beyond that.
** Vegas too actually.. Brooklyn Bowl! That was my first time running a GrandMA II and was terrified cause I was touring with a hog4 at the time and they had 10 universes so I had to use the house console.
Dannydoyle
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Yea even light and sound consoles have gotten SO much more workable.

The Behringer X-32 changed the game and now with the X-Air series you can have some pretty heavy duty sound equipment at a low cost and that is portable as can be! Even in lighting in general gone are the days when you needed a whole Hog to do the job. Tech has caught up and you get fantastic results with much less cost up front. The lights themselves are better as well, last longer and have less maintenance.

It is a great time to be a tech geek!

To bring this back on topic for KC, (Sorry about that tech talk gets me sidetracked!) these EXACT innovations in tech make the touring show not only more dependable, BUT easier to do and much more affordable. The sound board I am speaking about is under $500. That is NOTHING for this quality. They have Midas pre amps in all the mic in puts. In other words it is killer quality. Wasn't long ago this quality was going to be literally thousands out of pocket for the new touring performer. No depending on the equipment at the local show any more. (This is ALWAYS an issue.) Generally the sound tech has never seen a microphone "quite like yours" before! You can pre program scenes, with the right board you can pre program light cues if it marries with the system locally. No need to travel like so many do with HUGE amounts of money tied up in tech and trucks.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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Not to mention much lighter and more portable too.
Dannydoyle
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Absolutely and that translates to less fuel. More fuel efficient vehicles and yada yada yada.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
thomasR
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Also less power.... the first LED fixtures left a lot to be desired. But now Martin auras and Quantum profiles are my favorites. Putting 6 moving head washes on 1 circuit would have been unheard of just a few years ago.

Taking it back to a small traveling magic show.... being able to bring 6-12 moving heads to a small theatre and not have to worry about bringing a power distro, possibly paying an electrician etc... that can totally change the game.
thomasR
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Not sure if we scared KC away... hopefully not. But since this a topic that particularly interests me... anyone want to discuss marketing in small towns for a small theatrical show?

What works best in 2019?
Here's some options... Billboards, Newspaper Ads, Monthly publications (such as coupon books that get mailed out to every home), Poster the town, table tents in stores and restaurants, radio ads, tv ads, ads at shopping centers (some malls that have empty kiosks will rent them out for advertising)...

And of course online advertising.. where to begin...

now of course a small show coming to a small theatre isn't going to be able to have a massive marketing budget. So what works best? How do you sell those tickets.
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