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Jonathan Townsend
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Here's Nick Bostrom's article: https://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.pdf
And a link to a fun story about ancestor simulations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_Gap

So, what's the new hypothesis? Link?
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Jonathan Townsend
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This guy? Preston Greene is an assistant professor of philosophy at Nanyang Technological University in Singapore. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/opini......out.html
Quote:
Think of it this way. If a researcher wants to test the efficacy of a new drug, it is vitally important that the patients not know whether they’re receiving the drug or a placebo. If the patients manage to learn who is receiving what, the trial is pointless and has to be canceled.
One could argue that if we don't figure it out and let them know, then they will get bored waiting and dedicate the resources to another simulation they hope does better. Or... if we don't figure it out the people running their simulation will terminate their reality because they failed to prove their worth. Smile Smile Smile
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landmark
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That's assigning an awful lot of intentionality. Or is that part of your definition of simulation?
landmark
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Quote:
On Oct 31, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Here's Nick Bostrom's article: https://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.pdf
And a link to a fun story about ancestor simulations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_Gap

So, what's the new hypothesis? Link?


Thanks for the original argument link. I think everything we know about this version of civilization points to the first hypothesis: We will become extinct far before any chance of achieving the necessary tech knowledge. Indeed, the movement towards the necessary tech will hasten that extinction.
Steven Keyl
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On Oct 31, 2019, R.S. wrote:

Is it possible to live in a quantum universe that is NOT a simulation? If so, then to me these arguments aren't too persuasive (yet), because then the simulation theory is an unnecessary leap. Also, what kind of "universe" would the simulators live in? Would that be a quantum universe? Are they simulated at yet a higher level?



That's an excellent point.

However, I wouldn't call it an unnecessary leap completely as these things are inexplicable under our current scientific models. For example, instantaneous communication between particles across any distance (quantum entanglement) is simply not possible under Einstein's special theory of relativity; however, this phenomenon can be reliably reproduced.

Under a simulation model of the universe, this quantum entanglement is easily explained. Same, too, with the double-slit experiment, which seems to defy our understanding of several principles. Again, all of which could be easily explained via a simulation model.

I'm certainly not saying this is definitively true, but it does answer the mail for some of our longest lasting physics mysteries.
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Dannydoyle
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So life being a simulation and all I guess that goes and proves the existence of a supreme being, or even what many would call God. Obviously the programmer.

My real point is more like "who cares"? Even if it was provable, and knowable what difference would it make to anyone?
Danny Doyle
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Animated Puppets
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If this was a simulation salty avocados would taste like eggs...
Image
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R.S.
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Quote:
On Oct 31, 2019, Steven Keyl wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 31, 2019, R.S. wrote:

Is it possible to live in a quantum universe that is NOT a simulation? If so, then to me these arguments aren't too persuasive (yet), because then the simulation theory is an unnecessary leap. Also, what kind of "universe" would the simulators live in? Would that be a quantum universe? Are they simulated at yet a higher level?



That's an excellent point.

However, I wouldn't call it an unnecessary leap completely as these things are inexplicable under our current scientific models. For example, instantaneous communication between particles across any distance (quantum entanglement) is simply not possible under Einstein's special theory of relativity; however, this phenomenon can be reliably reproduced.

Under a simulation model of the universe, this quantum entanglement is easily explained. Same, too, with the double-slit experiment, which seems to defy our understanding of several principles. Again, all of which could be easily explained via a simulation model.

I'm certainly not saying this is definitively true, but it does answer the mail for some of our longest lasting physics mysteries.


And those are excellent points as well! However, I'm more inclined to think that Einstein's model may be... incomplete, or inadequate (in the way that Newton's model of gravity didn't explain the whole picture) than that the universe is a simulation concocted by unknowns for unknown reasons.

Also, there was a time when many people believed that the Sun circling the Earth "easily explained" the motion of the Sun across the sky. We have to be cautious about things that "easily explain" what we observe. The "simulation" theory is popular right now because we are in the digital age and it's an easy go-to. But 100 years ago, it would have been something else. And 100 or 200 years from now we may be invoking something completely different as an explanation for the universe.

But again, it is fascinating to think about. And I am not dismissing it out of hand. I just think we need more substantive evidence.

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
Steven Keyl
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Ron, I agree with you 100%. An incomplete Einstein-ian model that doesn't resort to simulation theory is a far likelier explanation for these apparent discrepancies, and in time we're likely to find out what they are.

But to play devil's advocate, our longest lasting scientific mysteries have required major updates to our models of reality. So the longer these questions remain unanswered in our current models, the likelier it becomes that the explanation for them is something that will seem as crazy as Einstein's theories seemed to people 115 years ago.

I think 115 years from now, our models of reality will be greatly different than they are today, whether that's simulation theory, a multiverse, 8-dimensional Minkowski spacetime, or whatever else we come up with between now and then. Whatever it is, will be mind-blowing.

But it is fun to think about.
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R.S.
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Quote:
On Nov 1, 2019, Steven Keyl wrote:
Ron, I agree with you 100%. An incomplete Einstein-ian model that doesn't resort to simulation theory is a far likelier explanation for these apparent discrepancies, and in time we're likely to find out what they are.

But to play devil's advocate, our longest lasting scientific mysteries have required major updates to our models of reality. So the longer these questions remain unanswered in our current models, the likelier it becomes that the explanation for them is something that will seem as crazy as Einstein's theories seemed to people 115 years ago.

I think 115 years from now, our models of reality will be greatly different than they are today, whether that's simulation theory, a multiverse, 8-dimensional Minkowski spacetime, or whatever else we come up with between now and then. Whatever it is, will be mind-blowing.

But it is fun to think about.


Well, this is no fun. We keep agreeing with each other! Smile

Anyway, you make good points. I suggest we meet back here on Nov 1, 2119 to evaluate the state of physics at that time. I'm sure we'll have plenty to discuss.

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
Jonathan Townsend
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On Oct 31, 2019, landmark wrote:
That's assigning an awful lot of intentionality. Or is that part of your definition of simulation?
Mine? The idea of incidental or accidental simulation of a sapient being seems too horrible to contemplate. Gives a whole new meaning to that Robert Palmer song.
Quote:
When I took you out
I knew what you were all about
But when I did
I didn't mean to turn you on
Now I bring you home
You told me goodnight's not enough for you
I'm sorry baby
I didn't mean to turn you on
No, I didn't mean to turn you on
You read me wrong
I wasn't trying to lead you on
Not like you think
I didn't mean to turn you on
I know you
Were expecting a one night stand
When I refused
I knew you wouldn't understand
I told you twice
I was only trying to be nice
Only trying to be nice
Ooh, I didn't mean to turn you on...
Sorry Siri
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landmark
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Quote:
The idea of incidental or accidental simulation of a sapient being seems too horrible to contemplate.


I believe Darwin had a name for it for our local cave.
Pakar Ilusi
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On Oct 24, 2019, JoshDude849 wrote:
Life is a simulation, plain and simple.


No, it isn't.

Prove me wrong.
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Jonathan Townsend
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One could imagine that any game of chess is a path through the space of possible games of chess. There's a similar interpretation of quantum mechanics. I don't know that either of those interpretations has yielded useful information about playing chess or our universe. Has it?
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Steven Keyl
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On Nov 1, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
So life being a simulation and all I guess that goes and proves the existence of a supreme being, or even what many would call God. Obviously the programmer.

My real point is more like "who cares"? Even if it was provable, and knowable what difference would it make to anyone?


When you say "what difference would it make to anyone?" I take that to mean, "if it could be proved true, I wouldn't live my life any differently." Is that an accurate assessment? If so, I agree with you that it doesn't matter in one sense because no one would, or even should, behave differently.

However, as human beings we have a natural curiosity about the world and we want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible.

Over time we stack one truth on top of another until we CAN use that information to effect actual change in the world. Eventually, cosmology, physics, biology, have allowed us to create a world unimaginable to people just a few centuries ago.

For example, entire generations were consumed with the idea of unravelling the movement of the stars and planets. When we discovered that the Earth moved around the Sun, it was a revolutionary idea. That, too, didn't cause anyone to behave differently, not at first. But Copernicus led to Galileo which led to Newton which led to Einstein, etc.

So, in a larger sense, I think it matters very much.
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Dannydoyle
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Not buying it. Seems like a lot of people trying to pretend they are smarter than they really are.
Danny Doyle
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Steven Keyl
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You're not buying what? That mankind's success has been achieved through a process of gradually improving our understanding of reality. If that's what you're saying, it's too absurd to respond to.

Further, no one here is pretending to be smarter than they are. We're just asking questions and discussing possibilities. If that makes you defensive it says a lot more about your mental state than ours.

All the best.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

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"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
Jonathan Townsend
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Mathematical Physics removed from measurable qualities seems more an art than science.

Galileo, and Kepler were looking at the heavens with the best tools they had available. The motions around Jupiter looked odd... as if it had moons. They noticed other more subtle questions about how things appear to move in the sky.

Conservatives added epicycles to account for the less than smooth and sometimes odd motions in the heavens. Copernicus noticed that putting the sun at the focus of an ellipse as a model produced useful calculations. We call those Kepler's Laws.

Newton started with those basic notions he called the laws of motion, added an inverse square law for gravity and was able to account for Kepler's Laws, for the orbit of planets, the tides on earth, and predict when a comet was due back. He ended his book with a comment about how important it would be to study electricity in the same manner as he did gravity.
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Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Nov 6, 2019, Steven Keyl wrote:
You're not buying what? That mankind's success has been achieved through a process of gradually improving our understanding of reality. If that's what you're saying, it's too absurd to respond to.

Further, no one here is pretending to be smarter than they are. We're just asking questions and discussing possibilities. If that makes you defensive it says a lot more about your mental state than ours.

All the best.

Projecting that it makes me defensive says a lot more about you than me. See anyone can do it. Now you're an expert in mental states as well? Love the internet.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Oct 24, 2019, JoshDude849 wrote:
Life is a simulation, plain and simple.
Simulations can halt, reset, and fork (try both paths) which don't seem part of life.

Consciousness may involve a simulation we run in our brains, giving us memory and expectations... but physics?
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