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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Here's Nick Bostrom's article: https://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.pdf
And a link to a fun story about ancestor simulations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_Gap So, what's the new hypothesis? Link?
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
This guy? Preston Greene is an assistant professor of philosophy at Nanyang Technological University in Singapore. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/opini......out.html
Quote: One could argue that if we don't figure it out and let them know, then they will get bored waiting and dedicate the resources to another simulation they hope does better. Or... if we don't figure it out the people running their simulation will terminate their reality because they failed to prove their worth. Think of it this way. If a researcher wants to test the efficacy of a new drug, it is vitally important that the patients not know whether they’re receiving the drug or a placebo. If the patients manage to learn who is receiving what, the trial is pointless and has to be canceled.
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
That's assigning an awful lot of intentionality. Or is that part of your definition of simulation?
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 31, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Thanks for the original argument link. I think everything we know about this version of civilization points to the first hypothesis: We will become extinct far before any chance of achieving the necessary tech knowledge. Indeed, the movement towards the necessary tech will hasten that extinction.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Steven Keyl Inner circle Washington, D.C. 2630 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 31, 2019, R.S. wrote: That's an excellent point. However, I wouldn't call it an unnecessary leap completely as these things are inexplicable under our current scientific models. For example, instantaneous communication between particles across any distance (quantum entanglement) is simply not possible under Einstein's special theory of relativity; however, this phenomenon can be reliably reproduced. Under a simulation model of the universe, this quantum entanglement is easily explained. Same, too, with the double-slit experiment, which seems to defy our understanding of several principles. Again, all of which could be easily explained via a simulation model. I'm certainly not saying this is definitively true, but it does answer the mail for some of our longest lasting physics mysteries.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!
B2B Magazine Test! Best impromptu progressive Ace Assembly ever! "If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
So life being a simulation and all I guess that goes and proves the existence of a supreme being, or even what many would call God. Obviously the programmer.
My real point is more like "who cares"? Even if it was provable, and knowable what difference would it make to anyone?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Animated Puppets Loyal user Lost on a Green Screen 285 Posts |
If this was a simulation salty avocados would taste like eggs...
I still recall the day I met Beaker from the Muppets. He said to me "Meep, meep, mee mee mee Meep!", and that has made all the difference.
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 184 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 31, 2019, Steven Keyl wrote: And those are excellent points as well! However, I'm more inclined to think that Einstein's model may be... incomplete, or inadequate (in the way that Newton's model of gravity didn't explain the whole picture) than that the universe is a simulation concocted by unknowns for unknown reasons. Also, there was a time when many people believed that the Sun circling the Earth "easily explained" the motion of the Sun across the sky. We have to be cautious about things that "easily explain" what we observe. The "simulation" theory is popular right now because we are in the digital age and it's an easy go-to. But 100 years ago, it would have been something else. And 100 or 200 years from now we may be invoking something completely different as an explanation for the universe. But again, it is fascinating to think about. And I am not dismissing it out of hand. I just think we need more substantive evidence. Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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Steven Keyl Inner circle Washington, D.C. 2630 Posts |
Ron, I agree with you 100%. An incomplete Einstein-ian model that doesn't resort to simulation theory is a far likelier explanation for these apparent discrepancies, and in time we're likely to find out what they are.
But to play devil's advocate, our longest lasting scientific mysteries have required major updates to our models of reality. So the longer these questions remain unanswered in our current models, the likelier it becomes that the explanation for them is something that will seem as crazy as Einstein's theories seemed to people 115 years ago. I think 115 years from now, our models of reality will be greatly different than they are today, whether that's simulation theory, a multiverse, 8-dimensional Minkowski spacetime, or whatever else we come up with between now and then. Whatever it is, will be mind-blowing. But it is fun to think about.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!
B2B Magazine Test! Best impromptu progressive Ace Assembly ever! "If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain |
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 184 Posts |
Quote:
On Nov 1, 2019, Steven Keyl wrote: Well, this is no fun. We keep agreeing with each other! Anyway, you make good points. I suggest we meet back here on Nov 1, 2119 to evaluate the state of physics at that time. I'm sure we'll have plenty to discuss. Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote: Mine? The idea of incidental or accidental simulation of a sapient being seems too horrible to contemplate. Gives a whole new meaning to that Robert Palmer song. On Oct 31, 2019, landmark wrote: Quote: Sorry SiriWhen I took you out
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Quote:
The idea of incidental or accidental simulation of a sapient being seems too horrible to contemplate. I believe Darwin had a name for it for our local cave.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 24, 2019, JoshDude849 wrote: No, it isn't. Prove me wrong.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
One could imagine that any game of chess is a path through the space of possible games of chess. There's a similar interpretation of quantum mechanics. I don't know that either of those interpretations has yielded useful information about playing chess or our universe. Has it?
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Steven Keyl Inner circle Washington, D.C. 2630 Posts |
Quote:
On Nov 1, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote: When you say "what difference would it make to anyone?" I take that to mean, "if it could be proved true, I wouldn't live my life any differently." Is that an accurate assessment? If so, I agree with you that it doesn't matter in one sense because no one would, or even should, behave differently. However, as human beings we have a natural curiosity about the world and we want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible. Over time we stack one truth on top of another until we CAN use that information to effect actual change in the world. Eventually, cosmology, physics, biology, have allowed us to create a world unimaginable to people just a few centuries ago. For example, entire generations were consumed with the idea of unravelling the movement of the stars and planets. When we discovered that the Earth moved around the Sun, it was a revolutionary idea. That, too, didn't cause anyone to behave differently, not at first. But Copernicus led to Galileo which led to Newton which led to Einstein, etc. So, in a larger sense, I think it matters very much.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!
B2B Magazine Test! Best impromptu progressive Ace Assembly ever! "If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Not buying it. Seems like a lot of people trying to pretend they are smarter than they really are.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Steven Keyl Inner circle Washington, D.C. 2630 Posts |
You're not buying what? That mankind's success has been achieved through a process of gradually improving our understanding of reality. If that's what you're saying, it's too absurd to respond to.
Further, no one here is pretending to be smarter than they are. We're just asking questions and discussing possibilities. If that makes you defensive it says a lot more about your mental state than ours. All the best.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!
B2B Magazine Test! Best impromptu progressive Ace Assembly ever! "If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Mathematical Physics removed from measurable qualities seems more an art than science.
Galileo, and Kepler were looking at the heavens with the best tools they had available. The motions around Jupiter looked odd... as if it had moons. They noticed other more subtle questions about how things appear to move in the sky. Conservatives added epicycles to account for the less than smooth and sometimes odd motions in the heavens. Copernicus noticed that putting the sun at the focus of an ellipse as a model produced useful calculations. We call those Kepler's Laws. Newton started with those basic notions he called the laws of motion, added an inverse square law for gravity and was able to account for Kepler's Laws, for the orbit of planets, the tides on earth, and predict when a comet was due back. He ended his book with a comment about how important it would be to study electricity in the same manner as he did gravity.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Quote:
On Nov 6, 2019, Steven Keyl wrote: Projecting that it makes me defensive says a lot more about you than me. See anyone can do it. Now you're an expert in mental states as well? Love the internet.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote: Simulations can halt, reset, and fork (try both paths) which don't seem part of life.
On Oct 24, 2019, JoshDude849 wrote: Consciousness may involve a simulation we run in our brains, giving us memory and expectations... but physics?
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