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Sudo Nimh Inner circle 1879 Posts 
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I couldn't agree more Chris; you'd think that this debate would have died a long time ago, but sadly, it hasn't.
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts
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And I think by trying to avoid the term magic at all costs kinda creates an awkward atmosphere...it becomes the elephant in the room sometimes...
Most people know what playing cards are, but some are hard pressed to name the suits... Past couple of years I've stuck with introducing myself as a cartomancy... Not at the doctor's obviously but under certain conditions, I've weirdly never been asked about magic... I also think, that our own experiences matters very little...what people don't say to you, they may still think or gossip about after... There's only so much you can do about that... definitely don't think everyone considers derren brown as real, some for sure. These days, any kind of mention of psychic induces eye rolling and skepticism over here... And even then, there's a certain percentage who believe no matter what. I think we need to consider all aspects of belief. It's broader than it used to be. And will get wider still as we carry on.
I've asked to be banned
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Dr Ross Loyal user Lincoln, UK 203 Posts
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Isolation is brilliant! A fantastic combo of techniques. The work is done before anything seemingly begins, and so when you reveal their card, it can elicit some great reactions. I use it a lot. Michael's videos are invaluable for helping you learn it, and the extra ideas on the Facebook group are really useful, especially in helping you find an approach (within the wider framework) that works for you.
Some other propless think-of-a-card type effects include: - Ross Tayler's 'O Force' - along with Fraser Parker's handlings (see Rapture DVD). Peter Turner also has a nice variation that can be found on his 'Escalators' set. - Fraser Parker's 'Clubbed over the head' (among many others using various different plots, principles, and techniques) - Ever Elizade's 'Mental Think of a Card' (involves a different and interesting approach) - Sean Water's 'K?NT' (from Ponderings) - Mark Elsdon's 'Deckless Wonder' (from 'Conversation As Mentalism Vol. 3') Some using props that I like include: Pete Turner's 'Think of Two' from Jinxed 2. Uses a deck but in a completely fair and hands off manner. He also provides some great techniques in that set that can be used for 'think of a card' style effects. I also just re-watched John Carey's ATT lecture and was reminded of his 'Think as I Think' effect, which I really like. Uses real decks but with a think-of-a-card angle. Ross
Ross Bartels
Author of: 'Vector' (propless code divination) https://www.mindfx.co.uk/products/vector-by-ross-bartels-e-book 'Janken' (propless RPS effects) - limited release 'Tacitus' (non-verbal propless effect) - limited release |
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Sudo Nimh Inner circle 1879 Posts
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Quote:
On Nov 14, 2019, IAIN wrote: Absolutely. I couldn't agree more Iain. |
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts
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Quote:
On Nov 14, 2019, WitchDocChris wrote: What prop? There is no prop if you're asking them to think of a playing card. |
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Sudo Nimh Inner circle 1879 Posts
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I don't think anyone (including myself) is advocating for "prop-less only" approaches Martin. I also listed two effects in my response to the OP which make use of a real deck.
I said it earlier and Chris echoed it: Context is everything - whether you're using an actual deck or not. |
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts
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Quote:
On Nov 14, 2019, IAIN wrote: Hey, you can ask them to imagine someone doing sleight of hand with playing cards, you can ask them to imagine a magician doing cups and balls, you can ask them to imagine a woman being sawn in half in a big box. It wouldn't be the most sensible presentation in my view, but each to their own. Quote:
On Nov 14, 2019, IAIN wrote: Another reason to avoid propless thought-card routines. They are simply no longer the everyday objects they once were. You really don't want to be explaining what the red and black symbols are when asking people to think of things. Keep it as simple as possible, but no simpler. |
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Sudo Nimh Inner circle 1879 Posts
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The problem of whether folks know the suits of cards etc is easily solved. Simply start out by asking if there are any card players present. Problem solved.
Perhaps the scene in the UK is different, but here in Canada I'm hard-pressed to think of times when that has ever been an actual issue I encountered. A lot of people still play card games around here. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts
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Quote:
On Nov 14, 2019, Martin Pulman wrote: I remember when K.E.N.T. first came out... remember the trumpeting? it seems to me, if you consider the broad range of opinions in the uk about the whole magic/mind reading realness of things - its quite varied isn't it... it has been in my experience anyway...so I know you're not advocating putting your fingers in your ears and shouting lalalalala I can't hear you... no matter who you are and what you do, some will go "yeah, nice magic trick mate..." and that's if Darren and Chan's ghost got them in a headlock too...(which I would quite like to see)... so I don't feel like we have to be extra cautious - if anything we should be a little "oh that?! yeah well...that's a completely different thing..." acting like we understand how they may think that - but to calmly correct them without coming across as a duckhead...
I've asked to be banned
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts
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Quote:
On Nov 14, 2019, Sudo Nimh wrote: You're going to not use a real deck of cards in order to defeat the notion of sleight of hand? Just don't mention playing cards at all and the notion of sleight of hand disappears completely. I understand why people have tried to come up with a prop-less thought card routine, but it really is mostly an intellectual exercise among magicians and mentalists to see how far you can push an effect. I'm glad people try it -and as I said there are great ideas in Michael's Isolation that can be used in more logical Mentalism routines - but the reasoning given so far for thinking of playing cards are pretty contrived and transparent. For those interested in work with a deck there are interesting ideas in Thomas Baxter's 'A Card Merely Thought Of', and Kaufman's 'Berglas Effects'. But the available gimmicked effects remain much cleaner, in my opinion. |
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WitchDocChris Inner circle York, PA 2614 Posts
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I'm going to take a moment and mention that I'm slightly surprised no one has mentioned Cogs by Ben Seward. Personally that's my favorite method, and if I were to do a card divination that's the one I would use. Perhaps it's not been mentioned because it's out of print? KENT by Kenton Knepper is also good, but I've never had much success with it.
I was going to quote bits of Iain's post I agreed with but I realized it was the whole thing so that's just cumbersome. We do need to acknowledge that audiences will think of magic, and the scripting and presentation needs to subtly remove that connection. I avoid it by doing as much as I can that is real. Every time I think about this I remember this guy I met several years ago when doing Tarot readings at a haunt. He was this big guy, looked like a biker. He saw the cards and asked if I ever read playing cards as well. Apparently his mother (or grandmother? I don't know, it's been years) did and he taught me her system, which was very straight forward. But here was a situation totally divested from magic, and the laymen was the one who brought up playing cards. I definitely do not advocate for propless. It has its place, but so do props. Again - context. Presentation. Creating the ideal situation for the desired effect is the important factor. Whatever works to do that is valid.
Christopher
Witch Doctor Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4 Boffo eBook: https://tinyurl.com/387sxkcd |
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts
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My favourite ungimmicked thought card effect is the Canasta routine David Blaine performed on the Tonight Show. It is a beautifully constructed beast.
https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view......start=80 The Canasta effect is the first effect. Chan really was a genius. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts
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Martin I have to ask...why do you like Chan so much when you don't like playing cards in mentalism?
I've asked to be banned
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts
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Quote:
On Nov 14, 2019, IAIN wrote: You're right -Chan Canasta is my favourite mentalist of all time. But he was performing 60 years ago. What made sense then in terms of people's experience and expectations doesn't necessarily make sense now. He was using cards as simple everyday items to display his power of influence. That made perfect sense 60 years ago. It doesn't now. But nor was he asking people to just think of a playing card out of thin air. Cards can be made to work in Mentalism. But for pure, prop-less routines I simply don't think they make a lot of sense. Especially when you start asking people to spell numbers and suits in their head. When does anyone do that in real life? |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts
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I agree with the spelling thing...just that back then, there was a lot more magic on TV and in real life end of pier and cabaret...so not only were cards far more common in normal life but far more card magic being performed too...
But Chan was still an influencer, a psychomagic fella... Didn't harm him. There's always exceptions...no one fits all rule...not many others went live on the BBC with Thier own show eh...
I've asked to be banned
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts
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My clumsy point is, surely that was the worst time to be a mentalist who used playing cards...
I've asked to be banned
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The Unmasked Magician Inner circle If only I didn't have a wife and a kid I would have MUCH more than 2706 Posts
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Quote:
On Nov 14, 2019, Martin Pulman wrote: Finally checked back to this thread. Saw this link ad was curious to see the routine, as I value your opinion, Martin. But I was directed to the thread about Luca's cards. So ... are you secretly endorsing them now? 
Please check regularly if you are becoming the type of magician Jerry Seinfeld jokes about. (This applies to mentalists as well.)
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts
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Certainly not. A more pointless product I can't imagine!
But do check out the Canasta routine if you can. Such beautiful thinking. So far ahead of his time. |
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The Unmasked Magician Inner circle If only I didn't have a wife and a kid I would have MUCH more than 2706 Posts
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I will, thanks for bringing my attention to it.
Please check regularly if you are becoming the type of magician Jerry Seinfeld jokes about. (This applies to mentalists as well.)
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Ben Blau Inner circle 1475 Posts
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I realize that no one asked, but I’ve observed that many practitioners don’t understand the difference between “think of a card” and “try to see a card”. The Riffle Force is not equivalent to the former.
Ben Blau
http://www.benblaumentalism.com |
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Posted: Nov 14, 2019 02:42 pm 
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