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Mb217 Inner circle 9520 Posts |
No, he does not teach the trick. It is actually a spinoff of another trick called ReFlipped. I believe Josh Jay offered this version of it, which to me is much more streamlined and direct without all the "twisting" folks like to do as to these sorta tricks. And you're right, you don't have to speed it up at all, and it plays just as well.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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dj Inner circle 1178 Posts |
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On Feb 20, 2020, Mb217 wrote: Here is the complete routine in three phases performed by me: https://youtu.be/OQI1Q5NHeDc You can find this routine on Joshua Jay's DVD 'Talk About Tricks'. Darko |
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts |
This is very pretty, Darko. Thanks for sharing it. It reminds me of an oil and water routine, except for the amazing third phase. I like the way the first two phases prepare the spectator's expectations about the third phase, thus increasing the surprise engendered by that last phase. You performed with your usual flair, and I think it must be difficult to perform without words and have the trick be intelligible, but you pulled it off with your usual flair.
Bob |
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Merc Man Inner circle NUNEATON, Warwickshire 2537 Posts |
A genuine question.
From a Spectator's perspective, what do you honestly think is the entertainment value/emotional appeal of a magician performing an Oil & Water routine? Second genuine question. If 'Oil & Water' is a way of basically seperating red playing cards from black playing cards, is ANY Oil & Water routine, in all honesty, more powerful and entertaining than 'Out of this World'? Suffice to say, I truly think that OOTW is a jaw-dropping piece of magic. I also truly believe that Oil & Water routines are at best, boredom and show-boating personified. In a nutshell, with O & W, YOU seperate reds and blacks..........errrrr, so what. Alternatively, with OOTW, the spectator seperates the reds and blacks, it's quite incredible and totally baffling. Suffice to say, I adore Card Magic. However, the 'Oil & Water' plot has always left me cold. I truly believe that it is boredom personified. Just my opinion.........don't shoot me for it!
Barry Allen
Over 14 years have passed - and still missing Abra Magazine arriving every Saturday morning. |
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts |
The main potential behind tricks like Oil and Water is that you're showing more than just control of a single card. The reason why tricks like Triumph, Homing Card Plus (specifically the climax), Out Of This World, Total Coincidence, Colour-Changing Deck, Shufflebored, All Backs, Multiple Selection Revelation Routines etc. can hit really hard is because they show mastery over the entire deck. Most magicians don't understand the value of this because we think in terms of method, and as such we see a sameness between (for example) the Hindu Shuffle display and a Hindu Shuffle force, and with that a sameness between the impact of the effects. This isn't confined to full-deck effects -- we see card-through-window and think "Meh. Forced card." whereas a regular person will think first and foremost about the window.
With that potential comes several responsibilities. First is clarity, as more items equals more possibilities for confusion. Second is method, because if the deception is weak then the effect lacks credibility. Third is performance, as the performer has to own the fact that they're about to do magic on fifty-two individual items, and really rise to that. It's worth noting that some people have tried to elevate humbler tricks into effects that apparently show full-deck mastery, to mixed results. Michael Vincent has gone on the record elsewhere on the Café about the very specific and strange dynamic that Everywhere and Nowhere has, and from there it's not difficult to extrapolate why attempting to turn it into a full-deck transformation trick doesn't work that reliably. In any case, getting back to Oil and Water, what these other tricks above are to the full deck, Oil and Water is to a small packet. Or, it should be, anyway, but I'd be willing to bet that most performers shoot themselves in the foot by starting off the performance by making a direct reference to oil and water, and the physics (or chemistry, whatever) behind their interaction. It's weak and uninspiring, and if we're being honest, it doesn't really make good on the promise offered by the premise. If you really wanted to demonstrate such a thing using cards, you'd start with a violent casino-style wash shuffle by the spectator, then square up, then wait a moment, and then start lifting cards off the top, showing them all to be a single colour, before showing the rest as all a different colour. The challenge then is to figure out what the effect is in Oil and Water. Start first by forgetting about the effect being "the red cards and black cards separate". That's not the effect, that's the result. What's the effect that made that happen? Plus, what's the cause behind that effect? We're now in Derren Brown territory in terms of re-evaluating what the heck it is we're trying to achieve with our silly art. You can't have clarity without first understanding what it is we're supposed to be clear about. If one can't do that, one might as well do what some have done with Anthony Owen's Oil and Water, and just do it to music. There's no bad moves with his method, so that helps. Incidentally, this is one reason why I think Follow The Leader succeeds where Oil and Water fails... There's a strong clarity there by default due to the two piles of cards that are noticeably separate from each other. It's pretty hard to screw that up. The second thing about Oil and Water that should be a strength is that you can achieve this apparent mastery over an entire small packet of cards with a minimum of sleight work, which means a minimum number of compromises. This is important. Part of the sell should be that you're doing magic on all the cards in the packet, and this is one part where I think Rene Lavand's approach actually falls short. The "It can't be done any slower" premise is fantastic and portable to a number of different tricks, not just Oil and Water. But the aesthetics of what he does, with fair laydowns, keeping the packet spread, and immediately separating to show the result gives this strange sense of only one card in the group of three being changed. This isn't good. Maybe it would help if he started by turning over the first three initially-dealt cards rather than the just-dealt ones (google the performance video to see what I'm talking about there), but I think honestly the best way to do it is to employ a display of some sort that gives the strong impression that each and every one of the cards are involved in the mystery. If they buy this, then it stands to reason that your method should also somehow involve each and every one of the cards, which it doesn't have to, because of what Oil and Water is all about. That's the sort of thing that can give the cognitive dissonance that can be the basis of a strong effect. Maybe not quite on the level of using the Elmsley count to make things cards over, but close.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts |
This is a really interesting analysis, Burnaby Kid. I don't know if I buy it, probably because I haven't performed much and thus don't have much intuition about what spectators tend to find strong. I can tell you that *this* spectator (me) loves transposition tricks, and like Barry, doesn't find O & W tricks interesting. (Darko's work was an exception because of the third phase.) Also as a spectator, I find Trost's 8-card brainwave a killer (even though I know how it's done).
So, those are my personal tastes. Do they fit into your theory? While we're at it -- I admit that I'm not a fan of Twisting the Aces. I understand why I *should* find it absolutely flabbergasting, but I just don't. Maybe there's a pill I can take for this condition. Bob |
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts |
Might as well clarify... this isn't a zero-sum game. Tricks that show full deck mastery aren't automatically better than tricks that don't. Different tricks offer different features, and part of being a good performer is choosing strong material that has features which you know how to leverage. In this sense, Oil and Water isn't competing with Transpositions or 8-Card Brainwave (the single-phase version in any case).
As for the merits of Twisting the Aces, I'll defer to Mr. Haydn's experience with it.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts |
I see what you mean - mastery over multiple cards is only one feature that can work in the magician's favor.
By the way, I like this: "If you really wanted to demonstrate such a thing using cards, you'd start with a violent casino-style wash shuffle by the spectator, then square up, then wait a moment, and then start lifting cards off the top, showing them all to be a single colour, before showing the rest as all a different colour." So if the premise is separation of oil and water, the promise isn't fulfilled, at least not very dramatically. I'm starting to think of this as an interesting challenge: what other premise might make O&W interesting? (Not that I have time -- too many other moves and tricks I'm working on learning.) Can you give me an idea of where I might find Whit Hadyn's thoughts on Twisting the Aces? Thanks for all the interesting thoughts; I'm learning a lot. Bob |
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts |
P. S. To Merc Man's point: What Burnaby describes in the sentence I quoted is more or less OOTW.
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arthur stead Inner circle When I played soccer, I hit 1773 Posts |
John Bannon's Twisted Sisters also uses only 8 cards.
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vinsmagic Eternal Order sleeping with the fishes... 10957 Posts |
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Brad Jeffers Veteran user 377 Posts |
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That's a really pretty trick. Do you happen to know if he teaches this somewhere? It didn't look like he sells anything on his website The trick is "Reflipped" by Yannick Chretien and can be found on page 84 of the August 2004 issue of MAGIC magazine. |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9520 Posts |
Yes, while the basic trick Is "Reflipped," the way that it's done as I mentioned it here, is more along the lines of Josh Jay's version of the trick (at least part of it), as presented by Caleb Wiles in, "The World's Fastest Card Trick."
If you watch him do it, you will see a difference in presentation toward the same basic end as to the transposition and little "flip" of it all. While always admiring and recognizing Yannick Chretien's, original work, I think how Caleb Wiles presented it I found as a more direct presentation, that is without all the twisting and turning of the cards as in Reflipped. And to be clearer, that presentation is but part of Josh Jay's effect called, "Jacks & Aces." It actually is the final phase of a longer Oil & Water type routine. And he does speak directly of Reflipped and credits Chretien on his DVD.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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Alan Munro Inner circle Kentwood, Michigan, USA 5952 Posts |
If you up the game to 10 cards, I could share with you the set that I carry with me most of the time. As for what type of routine is more powerful, a great bit of business could trump all of the theorizing. It's the presentation!
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts |
Alan,
Please count me in. I'm interested! (Mind you, I'm not a skilled magician. I can do a decent Elmsley Count. I can do a DL from a 3-4 card packet. Catching breaks -- especially in a small packet --is something I'm still working on, but I need to work on it anyway, especially because I love packet tricks.) Bob |
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Alan Munro Inner circle Kentwood, Michigan, USA 5952 Posts |
I use 10 cards to perform Small Triumph, by Nobuyuki Nojima from Steve Marshall's Asian Astonishments, and EZ Oil and Water, from Nathan Kranzo's Easy Card Magic. Small Triumph can be touchy if the cars stick together at all, so I soap the cards to keep them slippery.
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts |
Thanks, Alan. Is the presentation that you mentioned your own, or were they suggested by the authors? What do you see as the advantages of these versions over other triumphs and O & W's? I wouldn't plague you with all these questions , but I don't own either book, so a little more info would help me decide whether to buy them.
Bob |
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Alan Munro Inner circle Kentwood, Michigan, USA 5952 Posts |
I didn't mention my presentations, just the original sources for the routines. I just like the fact that I only need 10 cards. The EZ Oil and Water looks as if you're not changing the fact that the cards alternate in color, just moving cards that wouldn't change anything. I find that improvements to routines are rarely noticed by spectators unless it's a huge improvement. The presentation is king!
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts |
I wasn't clear: I actually was wondering whether you'd be willing to share, here or in a PM or on Secret Sessions, what presentations you use. I haven't gotten excited by O&W routines, but I can easily imagine that I'd like them with a good presentation. But of course I'll understand if you prefer not to share your presentation.
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ekgdoc Regular user 110 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 2, 2020, Bob G wrote: I have used Derren Brown's routine and have gotten great reactions. Below is a link to Derren performing it. Note that there is no mention of oil and water. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAt2juuxMMY David M. |
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