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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Food for thought » » The Object of Study (7 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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tommy
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Is the object of study in both magic and psychology the human mind?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
weirdwizardx
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I mean psychology yes,
Magic no, although, knowing about the mind enhances your knowledge to make a better routine.
tommy
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I think in magic the object of study is not so much the mind as the interrelationship between the mind and the action. Why do we use ordinary everyday objects?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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tommy
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When Dai Vernon said, “Be natural.” I think he meant, do things in such a way that people can relate to; in such a way that ordinary folks would do it, as opposed to a strange way that they cannot relate to in their daily lives and which would arouse their suspicion. This is the sort of thing I mean by the interrelationship between the mind and the action.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Jonathan Townsend
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Psychology underlies all of human culture and experience - man's mind as seen in nature's mirror. Isolated, it is a science, blurring into biology in the small and sociology among groups of people.

Magic is a variety art - a format of entertainment. The distinction between magic and the other arts is drawn at practical deception. Deception is itself a facet of psychology, in that there are expectations and outcomes, perceptions and presuppositions ... though we don't treat it as a science in itself (well most of this community).

Not sure we want deception isolated into a science. How sure can you be that someone will ...
...to all the coins I've dropped here
tommy
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All art is a lie.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
tommy
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The good thing about psychology is that the mentalists can use the comedic device of hyperbole to exaggerate the effects of either a real or plausible psychological phenomena and then prove it true. If that happens to mislead the public as to the true science of psychology, then the mentalist can just say “So what - I am a charlatan.”
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Jonathan Townsend
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There's a thing in psychology called imaginary audiences.
Our literature is set up with claims about what an audience would notice of a performance.

Those are not supposed to be premises of a syllogism but if the shoes fit...
...to all the coins I've dropped here
tommy
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Art with a message is propaganda.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
landmark
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Art is a message.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Mar 22, 2020, landmark wrote:
Art is a message.
We are so far from techne, craft, artisans...
Think of a message in a bottle found on a shore and kept in a house, in a case for generations.
The bottle remains unopened, the message unread.
People come to pay their respects to the house, to buy postcards with a picture of cabinet, then write about the experience of their travels. Smile
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Pop Haydn
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Magic is the message. I think the study of magic includes psychology, but it is much more an attack on logic. It is sophistry.
tommy
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The problem with psychologists is that they don’t know the secrets of magic and so they find magic difficult to study. Psychologists understand language better than magic and so they can study Nonsense Literature, which is a form of sophistry in which language, rather than objects, is manipulated to make nonsense make sense. What is psychologically true of Nonsense Literature is probably also true Our Magic.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Pop Haydn
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There are a lot of things that a geologist must study in order to understand rocks. But it is most important to look at the rocks, tommy. In order to understand magic, we must study magic.
tommy
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When one has climbed the mountain and rested one's head on a rock, one will come to know that one can no more study magic than one can study love.


One can, however, study the two equal and opposite forces which create it.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Mar 23, 2020, Pop Haydn wrote:
... an attack on logic. It is sophistry.
How so, when audience knows the premises are untrue and the conclusion is absurd?
Do we have people around who imagine that their perceptions, while necessary, are also sufficient to understand all that is seen?

Enjoying a play at the Cartesian Theater. Smile
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Pop Haydn
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If the audience "knows" the premises are untrue, then there is no magic. They have to believe the coin was in the hand. The audience knows that there is an error someplace, but because the magician has gotten agreement to all the necessary premises, and the argument seems valid, the conclusion of the impossible is hard to resist. One or more of the premises accepted are untrue.
tommy
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The audience knows the fictional patter is untrue and they know the facts of the experiment are true. The relationship between these two equal and opposite forces is the magic. They know it cannot be true but there it is. One can study the art of the patter and the science of the magic but never the magic itself.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Pop Haydn
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Quote:
On Mar 26, 2020, tommy wrote:
The audience knows the fictional patter is untrue and they know the facts of the experiment are true. The relationship between these two equal and opposite forces is the magic. They know it cannot be true but there it is. One can study the art of the patter and the science of the magic but never the magic itself.


Why not, tommy?
tommy
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Because the rational mind is thrown into a dilemma trying to decide what it is when it is two opposite things at the same time.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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