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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Food for thought » » The Object of Study (7 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Pop Haydn
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tommy
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Smile Stir crazy


If the fantasy is proven true by the experiment then is the fantasy one side and the experiment on the contrary side of a dilemma?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Pop Haydn
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No. Because the dilemma is "the impossible is true" vs "sure knowledge that it is impossible." The fantasy and theatrical elements that make it believable all support the proof of the impossible. The knowledge that the phenomena is impossible is brought to the table by the audience. Sometimes the fantasy contains the "wink" to the audience that they are right to suspect the proof. Pop Haydn sort of is his own disclaimer. People know not to take anything he says or does too seriously. At the same time, the story of Pop and his exploits helps to lead the audience in suspending disbelief a bit to enjoy the fantasy.
tommy
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How can that which is a self-evidently ridiculous argument, support the argument? It seems to me, that the only things which support your argument that the water is magnetic are the apparent facts of the experiment. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Pop Haydn
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Quote:
On May 3, 2020, tommy wrote:
How can that which is a self-evidently ridiculous argument, support the argument? It seems to me, that the only things which support your argument that the water is magnetic are the apparent facts of the experiment. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


I don't follow. The argument is the apparent facts of the experiment. The demonstration is not ridiculous. The argument is not ridiculous--the conclusion is ridiculous; the concept of magnetic water is ridiculous. The argument, the proof, is the apparent demonstration of the qualities of magnetized water.
Pop Haydn
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"This coin is made of specially weakened metal. It's unstable quantum structure makes it capable of passing through other matter when hurled against it at speed." That is the nonsense. To prove it is true, I need to put a coin in a bottle. There are all sorts of things the argument must accomplish. The bottle is solid. The coin is solid. The only opening to the bottle is covered. The coin is seen in the bottle. It is heard in the bottle. It is proved that the coin actually went through the bottom of the bottle. The audience knows that coins can't pass through bottles. Something is wrong here, but they don't know what. It seems as if the nonsense about quantum energy is true, because they can't offer any other explanation. They know it is nonsense. But they can't get past the facts of the argument. It seems undeniable that the coin went in and came out of the bottle. That is impossible. But it did. So what do you think it was?

The exact same proof of the impossible, the coin going into the bottle, and the argument which supports the proof, could be used to support a totally different nonsense explanation. "The bottle is made of glass. Glass is not really a solid. It is a liquid that moves at a slower pace than most familiar liquids..."
tommy
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Yes sorry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohDB5gbtaEQ

How can, that which is a self-evidently ridiculous claim support the argument? It seems to me, that the only things which support your claim, that the water is magnetic, are the apparent facts of the experiment. That is what I meant.

In response to “The fantasy and theatrical elements that make it believable all support the proof of the impossible.”

In other words, I think the fantasy and theatrical elements make it unbelievable as opposed to believable.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Pop Haydn
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Okay. It should be both unbelievable and undeniable at the same time. Thus, a dilemma. But remember, the closer the presentation comes to charlatanry, the more the theatrical and fantasy elements come to making the whole thing believable. The doctors were all in agreement that the subject could actually read minds...At the other end of the spectrum, the fantasy elements are less believable, as they are with Pop Haydn. The dilemma is less sharpened on the other side. If you convince people that the impossible is actually possible, then the proof becomes convincing rather than provocative.
tommy
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The nature of this sort of nonsense patter conveys to the audience the assertion is a lie and it is essentially that which distinguishes our magic from charlatanry. When the apparent facts of the experiment prove the nonsense makes sense, the audience is amazed and amused; amazed because it is impossible for nonsense to make sense and amused because it is absurd for it to do so. Charlatans tend to make claims that cannot be disproved; I am thinking of spiritualists who pretend to talk to the dead there. My wife goes to sees one and to my wife, there is no-nonsense about it.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Jonathan Townsend
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We can talk about trickery and short cons but pulling on heartstrings and preying upon the personal distress of others is supposed to be off limits in "Our Magic".
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Pop Haydn
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Quote:
On May 4, 2020, tommy wrote:
The nature of this sort of nonsense patter conveys to the audience the assertion is a lie and it is essentially that which distinguishes our magic from charlatanry. When the apparent facts of the experiment prove the nonsense makes sense, the audience is amazed and amused; amazed because it is impossible for nonsense to make sense and amused because it is absurd for it to do so. Charlatans tend to make claims that cannot be disproved; I am thinking of spiritualists who pretend to talk to the dead there. My wife goes to sees one and to my wife, there is no-nonsense about it.


Plenty of spiritualists have used magic in order to bolster their claims. As have Alchemists, Healers, Psychics, Sorcerers, Rainmakers, Priests, Shamans and Diviners. Those are the real charlatans. Our Magic is a burlesque of those sort of fakers for entertainment and amusement. One can get pretty close to charlatanry without crossing the line from the purpose of entertainment to that of taking advantage. Magic money printing machines can be amusing, until some sucker buys one for a few thousand dollars. Familiarity with magic and magicians helps people to be less susceptible to becoming victims.
tommy
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“Now it may be that the assertion I am about to make will be received by you with polite but none the less absolute incredulity;”

Absolute incredulity; totally unable to believe the nonsense assertion, is the perfect condition for our magic experiment to prove the unbelievable true; therein is a dilemma.

The charlatan, in contrast to the legitimate magician, wants his victims to absolutely believe his assertion and prove it true: therein is no dilemma.

Yet in both cases, we see the impossible.



If you read "Our Magic" you will find charlatans get a mention.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Pop Haydn
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I have read "Our Magic!" Smile I agree with you.

Charlatans don't want to create a dilemma, which produces wonder. They want belief, which makes people suckers that can be used to his advantage.
tommy
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Alice: This is impossible.

The Mad Hatter: Only if you believe it is.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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