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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Retention Vanish (24 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Rick Holcombe
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Quote:
On Apr 12, 2020, FraterBovious wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 19, 2020, Rick Holcombe wrote:
Try this one! My own creation.


Love your videos! I like your presentation style, and the clear explanation. By the way, is that a banjo uke on the wall? Looks like a 4 string.


Thanks! It's just a regular 5 string banjo.

Quote:
On Apr 13, 2020, funsway wrote:
Several fine advancements here, Rick - hope folks are paying attention.

technique is not just about the fake pass, but what came before and after (timing, natural flow and aquitments)



Thanks funsway!

Quote:
On Apr 17, 2020, hypnoman1 wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 26, 2020, Rick Holcombe wrote:
Glad to be of help!


Rick thank you for posting the videos they are fun to watch and I have picked up some great tips!



I appreciate that! Also, be sure to look at my thoughts on the french drop. I turn it into more of a fake put than a fake take, it makes a ton of difference.
Quote:
On Apr 17, 2020, Bill Citino wrote:

That third one in the video has always been a favorite of mine.

Rick’s Rolling Retention is a great vanish as well!


Thanks Bill!
countrymaven
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I thought about the retention vanish. I started doing it the way I thought people naturally hold coins. I hold the coin between the right forefinger and thumb and
"grasp"
it naturally with left thumb and fingers. The right hand comes away with the fingers and thumb relaxed and open. The coin vanishes in the left hand. The reactions have been
great so far. It seems natural and impossible.

I am not touting this as the only way etc. I just got bored and developed it.
magicfish
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Sounds like an effective false take. See Carney's handling of cylinder and coins.
But are you sure there is a retention of vision involved?
countrymaven
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The retention of vision is only in the mind of the fool this is pulled on.
Nev Blenk
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I have always used the fingertip rv because it works well while seated. There are some fantastic looking retention vanishes out there with zero movement (mine is not one of them). My humble oppinion and thoughts are that if you do the move for real and take the coin there is 'some' finger movement. I try to mimic that.

Some over the shoulder practice.

Cheers - Nev

funsway
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Quote:
On Apr 21, 2020, countrymaven wrote:
The retention of vision is only in the mind of the fool this is pulled on.


Which obviates the equivocation here over "retention vanish" as any fake transfer in which the coin is secretly retained in the passing hand (original meaning)
and "retention" as a corruption of "Persistence of Vision" psychological ploy (now apparently Retention of Vision" (A flash of seen or remembered after the event)

There are several post on the Café back about 2006 on mangling of terms, but I guess we must bow to the common use today.

The problem is what terms to use to differentiate various types of fake and false transfers?

In many simple fake transfers there is no "flash" and no ploy. Yet the coin is retained in the passing hand. What is it?
In some false transfers the coin is seen to actually be on the receiving palm/fingers, yet ends up back in the passing hand. (no vision ploy). What is it called?

In some pseudo transfers there is no coin at all, yet the observer will see the coin fall or be in the fingers. Different psychological ploys at work, but not "retention or persistence".
Yet, the coin is found to not be in the receiving hand - may even be back in the passing hand. Magicians observing this may say "Retention Vanish," but ...

....

as long as I am on an early morning run for clarity of terminology ...

since the immediate reveal of the coin not being in the receiving hand risks revealing method or suggesting SOH, with some intervening action being wise such
as showing the passing hand empty, why are these passes call "vanishes" at all? If the flow of the routine is a transportation from hand to Okito Box, for example, there is no vanish implied.
If the coin becomes invisible to hung in the air for later purposes there is no vanish.

and as the final way to get myself in trouble. For me, the ideal handling is to have the observer never remember that the coin changed hands at all, so the last thing I want
is a flash of light to accentuate the placement (or some fancy finger flourish). Choose:

"Yeah, this guy placed the coin in the lady's hand and later it was gone - jumped right over to that glass. Amazing! He never touched the blooming thing."

or

"He had the coin in his right fingers and then put it in his left hand for some reason. Then he put the coin in the lady's hand after making her move. Weird."

Read once that, "the best sleight is one that never happened at all!" Not sure who said it.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



ShareBooks at www.eversway.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
J-Mac
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Well said Ken. Smile

Jim
magicfish
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Quote:
On Apr 21, 2020, countrymaven wrote:
The retention of vision is only in the mind of the fool this is pulled on.

Thanks Maven, now I know for a fact that you are not a pro,and that you have not studied the art of sleight of hand at an intermediate level.
magicfish
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Quote:
On Apr 21, 2020, funsway wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 21, 2020, countrymaven wrote:
The retention of vision is only in the mind of the fool this is pulled on.


Which obviates the equivocation here over "retention vanish" as any fake transfer in which the coin is secretly retained in the passing hand (original meaning)
and "retention" as a corruption of "Persistence of Vision" psychological ploy (now apparently Retention of Vision" (A flash of seen or remembered after the event)

There are several post on the Café back about 2006 on mangling of terms, but I guess we must bow to the common use today.

The problem is what terms to use to differentiate various types of fake and false transfers?

In many simple fake transfers there is no "flash" and no ploy. Yet the coin is retained in the passing hand. What is it?
In some false transfers the coin is seen to actually be on the receiving palm/fingers, yet ends up back in the passing hand. (no vision ploy). What is it called?

In some pseudo transfers there is no coin at all, yet the observer will see the coin fall or be in the fingers. Different psychological ploys at work, but not "retention or persistence".
Yet, the coin is found to not be in the receiving hand - may even be back in the passing hand. Magicians observing this may say "Retention Vanish," but ...

....

as long as I am on an early morning run for clarity of terminology ...

since the immediate reveal of the coin not being in the receiving hand risks revealing method or suggesting SOH, with some intervening action being wise such
as showing the passing hand empty, why are these passes call "vanishes" at all? If the flow of the routine is a transportation from hand to Okito Box, for example, there is no vanish implied.
If the coin becomes invisible to hung in the air for later purposes there is no vanish.

and as the final way to get myself in trouble. For me, the ideal handling is to have the observer never remember that the coin changed hands at all, so the last thing I want
is a flash of light to accentuate the placement (or some fancy finger flourish). Choose:

"Yeah, this guy placed the coin in the lady's hand and later it was gone - jumped right over to that glass. Amazing! He never touched the blooming thing."

or

"He had the coin in his right fingers and then put it in his left hand for some reason. Then he put the coin in the lady's hand after making her move. Weird."

Read once that, "the best sleight is one that never happened at all!" Not sure who said it.

The confusion was as silly in 2006 as it is now.
A Retention of Vision pass is nothing to do with retaining the small object in the hand. It isn't about the retention on the coin, it's about the retention of vision- hence the title.
Poof-Daddy
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Quote:
On Apr 21, 2020, countrymaven wrote:
The retention of vision is only in the mind of the fool this is pulled on.

So I guess spectators are "fools" then? If so, are they even worthy of viewing your perfectly executed retention of vision vanish? Your statement seems pretty clear that you feel that way. I prefer to entertain (or go out on a limb and sometimes "fool" them with respect to suddenly producing something they thought would be something else) but I would not consider them "fools". Spectators deserve respect for allowing us, as magicians, to entertain them. Just sayin...
Cancer Sux - It is time to find a Cure

Don't spend so much time trying not to die that you forget how to live - H's wife to H on CSI Miami (paraphrased).






Smile Smile
funsway
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On Apr 21, 2020, magicfish wrote:

it's about the retention of vision- hence the title.


but the psychological ploy is "Persistence of Vision" - hence the original naming of the 'flash' technique as "POV"

back in the late 50's when I was learning coin sleights, great emphasis was placed on distinctions between various fake transfers -
those in which the object was placed or taken, those in which the object was retained in the passing hand and those using some other technique -
and a focus on intent of what the observer was let to believe occurred. Retention Passes were a specific class of coin sleights.

The term "vanish" was only used to refer to sleights in which the observer was led to conclude that that the object had disappeared.
If the objective was "transport" or "made invisible" or "penetrate" than that description was used, never "vanish."

Me - I use the pass most appropriate to the desired objective and expectation of the audience, and never repeat method in a routine -
preferring false pass over fake pass anyway.

Not putting down those who like the the "flash" technique by any name - just don't think anyone should get choose a technique just because it is their favorite,
or some famous name favorite. Look to the desired end result and follow ...

OK for mindfish to think such distinctions to be "silly" too --
just trying to help those who want "must be magic" to wallow in the observer's mind a bit.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



ShareBooks at www.eversway.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
countrymaven
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Magicfish, as usual, you comment on what you have not seen and do not know. This has not been released. I came up with it. I know it bothers you.

When was the last time you were paid for doing magic? never? Ok. that is why you have so much time to comment on things you have never seen and have no idea how the ROV works in this case and it does.

I just got tired of things looking like a move. Spectators are really and truly not dumb like many magicians think, at least a certain percentage of them.
When you bring your hand that just put the hand out without the overused monkey palm the finger palm, with your fingers open but relaxed,there is no way you could have a coin in your hand. Or so it seems. You couldn't have it in the CPalm. I would suggest the answers you are seeking are not in challenging pros on here with things you have never seen (and thus you are ignorant of) and that their spectators consider miracles. Instead, become a pro. You may have to pay them to watch you for a while. Until you understand. It is their perception of real magic and entertainment that matters. Then you start to understand how things have to be improved on if you want to keep getting paid and getting real world attention.
magicfish
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"This has not been released. I came up with it."
- You said the same thing about your original, invisible, best ever, card reverse.
You see, if you're going to fib, you have to have a good memory.
magicfish
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"Spectators are really and truly not dumb like many magicians think,"

- you are the one who referred to your spectators as fools.
magicfish
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"I would suggest the answers you are seeking are not in challenging pros"

- I seek no answers from those who have clearly not studied the work of the masters.
magicfish
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"Instead, become a pro"

- I worked as a magician as a child doing birthday parties, Ive performed juggling and mentslism, I did closeup sleight of hand in restaurants as a teen and into my early twenties. It was fun and I learned a lot. I am now a pro in another field.
But your lack of knowledge of sleight of hand magic is betrayed by your insistence that those who receive money are automatically better.
I sincerely encourage you to research men like Al Goshman, Milt Kort, Larry Jennings,
Dai Vernon, Dean Dill, Sol Stone, Lou Gallo.
But for now, I think I could help you most by referring you to John Ramsay and John Carney.
Good luck with your coin magic.
padre rich
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Look at the goshman act.his vanish is worth learning...
God's grace rocks! It makes a good cups and balls routine look pretty boring in comparison.
magicfish
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As stated above Padre- you have good taste.
magicfish
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Funsway wrote:

"Back in the late 50's when I was learning coin sleights, great emphasis was placed on distinctions between various fake transfers - 
those in which the object was placed or taken, those in which the object was retained in the passing hand and those using some other technique - 
and a focus on intent of what the observer was let to believe occurred. Retention Passes were a specific class of coin sleights."

- All that is still true today, false takes false puts, Retention Passes etc.
But I believe the OP is referring to a Retention of Vision pass- a different class of coin pass than the aforementioned.
Retention in ROV refers to the vision of the coin being retained in the spectators eye, not the retention of the coun in the performers hand.
Bug difference.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Apr 21, 2020, countrymaven wrote:
The retention of vision is only in the mind of the fool this is pulled on.
There are contrived timing and lighting/contrast involved in getting that specific optical effect. There is also a perception based on how you adjust your hand as if holding the coin. Goshman was very good at communicating that adjustment as he seemed to toss a coin into his other hand.

What folks could learn from Ramsay (via Galloway or Carney) is how to divert audience focus of attention from sleights. There's some film of Ramsay doing his coin work. He might not have fooled the camera but you can see how he moved the cameraman's attention.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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