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Alfred Borden New user 55 Posts 
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Hello,
I have recently thought a lot about the persona, that I want to impersonate on stage. As I have always been very interested in psychology and know a lot about it, the psychological approach to mentalism comes naturally to me. I have a few questions however. I am currently reading Corinda's 13 steps. What if I want to do a trick, that can't be really explained by the psychological approach? Do I just have to think harder about an explanation and a fitting presentation of it or should I just choose another trick? Are there tricks, that can't be done with a psychological presentation? There is another thing, that is on my mind a lot in the last couple of days. I would really love to give cold readings, but I don't know, if there is something, that suits a psychological approach. I mean, I can not really use tarot with the psychological approach. Maybe the analyse of handwriting would work. But maybe a good way to present a reading with a psychological angle is to do it kind of like Sherlock Holmes? Is that possible? If so, how can one learn that? Do you have some other ideas concerning how to do readings with a psychological approach? Thank you very much. |
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ipe Special user 513 Posts
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Quote:
On Mar 26, 2020, Alfred Borden wrote: This is a very subjective topic. You could just avoid to perform effects that can't be explained by psychology. Another possible approach: to perform this kind of effects as the last one. The idea is you do all psychological effects and at the end, when the spectators are getting used to them, you can surprise them with "something that will challenge the notions of the contemporary psychology... we have so much more to discover about the mind!". Of course this is just an idea, there are multiple solutions to your puzzle. 
Quote:
On Mar 26, 2020, Alfred Borden wrote: Try with "Doodle Me a Tree" by Andy Fisher (book) or "Draw Me A Tree" by Rudy Hunter (video).
What would a real mindreader do?
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tomd Special user 747 Posts
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Expanding on ipe’s point: Looch didn’t come up with this concept, but the first time I found it in writing was in his work: sometimes it’s ok to metaphorically kick um in the b*ll*cks. I’m probably paraphrasing the way he said it, but it’s something I fundamentally agree with and works very well from experience.
Essentially it entails having a persona and a set of skills that you present (in your case, psychological mind reading), and you lead them down the garden path with your body language/psychological readings and such, and then you do something that is so left field and unexplainable in comparison to your previous stuff, that you metaphorically kicked them in the prized jewels. I’ve probably butchered Looch’s explanation of the idea, but if you choose your set wisely it’s great fun. When done correctly, your participants walk away dumbfounded and still believe your persona. “Are there tricks, that can't be done with a psychological presentation?” I think so, yes. Bob Cassidy’s name and place is a pretty good example of that in my opinion. “Nobody” knows were each bit of of paper is in that routine, so you can’t really “psychology” your way out of that situation. I Raised this point in another thread years ago, and a couple of people came up with their own solutions to make name & place a psychological routine... personally I think they destroyed the beauty of the routine in the process. There are probably plenty of other examples but I can’t think of any right now. As for cold reading: yes, psychological approaches work really well... it’s probably one of the most authentically psychological things you can do. You’ll find Derren Brown using cold reading with a psychological approach on YouTube in different videos. One great example is in the show when he confronts the “psychic” joe power... |
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dyoung Special user 898 Posts
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I think it was Marc Spelmann who said that to Looch, if I recall the story correctly.
If there isn't an immediate solution as to how you can present it with a psychological angle, I would abandon it rather than complicate it. There's plenty of other tricks out there. Having said that, Derren Brown managed to make fork bending into a psychological effect, that was pretty cool. Sort of hypnosis like... It was from his early TV work. So it IS possible, and you can enjoy tinkering with things as a creative exercise. So it's all up to you really
All the best, Dan |
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WitchDocChris Inner circle York, PA 2614 Posts
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Changing your supposed skill set last minute is very "magician thinking"esque. Cramming a routine in because it's fun to perform even if it has no place there.
If it doesn't suit the persona you are portraying, it shouldn't be in your show.
Christopher
Witch Doctor Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4 Boffo eBook: https://tinyurl.com/387sxkcd |
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peirceman Regular user 116 Posts
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There is your character, and then, there is your act. Your character should help you write your script and choose your effects, but it is not a jail cell that restricts you. Let's not forget, you are there to entertain and mystify. If the effect is strong, and you like performing it, that enjoyment will shine through and your audience will know it. If all else fails, you can use the "Some things psychology cannot explain", then do your thing.
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WitchDocChris Inner circle York, PA 2614 Posts
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Congruence is essential to mentalism. Breaking congruence will change it into a magic show. Which is fine, if that's what the performer wants - but this is the mentalism section.
Christopher
Witch Doctor Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4 Boffo eBook: https://tinyurl.com/387sxkcd |
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Mr. Woolery Inner circle Fairbanks, AK 2149 Posts
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I’m in agreement with Christopher, here. There are some beautiful performance pieces that tempt me strongly, but honestly don’t suit me. If I were to attempt them, neither I nor the effect would look as good.
Readings can be generated by a wide range of things, but most look at something unique about the individual. Palm, order of cards, drawing, handwriting, etc. I love palmistry. But it is esoteric, not psychological. I also love cartomancy. I have a simple system of color readings with a pendulum that can be presented as psychological. But tree readings are the most psychological readings I do. I learned from Rudy Hunter’s DVD. Great investment. One ideal that I’m trying to work toward is mentalism without tricks. Not without deception, but no gimmicks or special versions of common items. My first seance was last October and gave me a chance to mix material that was open to interpretation with some tricks. I ended up paring it down to only two items that depend on my deceiving the group. One of those I will drop the next time I do a seance. The real impact on the participants came from things that were truly out of my direct control. I set the mood, guided the direction, they provided all the rest. The great thing is that it was truly all psychological, but it wasn’t perceived that way. Patrick |
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Matt Pulsar Inner circle 1130 Posts
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Giving a reading based on handwriting analysis or graphology is great and you don’t need to make a trick or deception out of it. Just learn the basics of graphology and it will impress you too.
Belief Manifests Reality.
Nebula CT: https://www.penguinmagic.com/p/8517 |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts
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Learn some real psychology, know the terminology, give yourself some basic understanding...know the main schools and names...
readings can be based on: analytical deduction art and colour psychology "knowing" people's behaviours and so on also, learn about how the brain works...even things like this is very interesting (to me)… https://curiosity.com/topics/what-is-the......riosity/ and https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.100......6389-4_1 main tip is - research as much as you can, learn, read, self-educate... even learning how to best Google...keep notes, rinse and repeat... I also find it fun (in a healthy good way) that most of the people helping you (with good ideas) don't perform in this style
personally, I think any psychic presentation can be rewritten to be a psychological presentation...
I've asked to be banned
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WitchDocChris Inner circle York, PA 2614 Posts
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Agree fully with Matt and Iain.
Learning these principles (which many people never do, they just pretend because that's what the script says in the book or video) is very interesting and you'll find yourself being amazed at what happens 'naturally'.
Christopher
Witch Doctor Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4 Boffo eBook: https://tinyurl.com/387sxkcd |
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Mr. Woolery Inner circle Fairbanks, AK 2149 Posts
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Well, Iain, I don’t know about that last bit. Remote viewing and PK movement are harder to sell as psychology than a drawing dupe or thought-of word.
Still, a whole lot can go either way. Recently (2 months ago) I was asked by a high school student about whether I believe in ESP. I said that I think a lot of what people believe to be psychic is, I suspect, mostly having a brain that’s really good at connecting the dots and figuring things out, but not always knowing the steps consciously. That happens to be what I really believe, but it gave this kid something he really seemed to think about. What if most psychic impressions really are just making those connections? Are water dowsers just really good at seeing the shape of the terrain, what’s growing where, and then connecting it all unconsciously? Could be. I tend to give this idea more credence than ley lines. But I could also be wrong. In performing, I think it is important to at least hint at a process. It doesn’t need to be your real method, but if you can at least show that you need to work for the answer, people see that you didn’t just find a way to look at what they wrote. If you get it a little wrong (they write goose, you say duck), it validates your process. The 95% solution can be great. Patrick |
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Mr. Woolery Inner circle Fairbanks, AK 2149 Posts
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And I’m totally up-front when I give readings. This card means this, this color means... The beauty of a system like that is that you don’t have anything to hide.
If the OP is looking for a frame for the one-size-fits-all stock lines, I’m going to urge that a real system be used. Drawings or graphology being great examples. Patrick |
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Alfred Borden New user 55 Posts
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Wow, thanks for the many answers.
Quote:
On Mar 26, 2020, IAIN wrote: Iain, could you elaborate a little bit more on this? |
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Alfred Borden New user 55 Posts
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Quote:
On Mar 26, 2020, Mr. Woolery wrote: I am looking for reading systems, that fit the psychological approach and could be used at any time with little to no props. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts
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I don't often pump my wares, but I will today...
In my signature is a link to a sales page, WORDS PICTURES NUMBERS will give you what you're looking for...there's a review in latest and greatest...and lots more reviews of the individual systems...
I've asked to be banned
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts
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Quote:
On Mar 26, 2020, Alfred Borden wrote: I can't really ☺️ Not without writing loads and loads and loads... It's why I said about research and so on... If you start with Freud and Jung and follow the trails you'll find all sorts of things. Even going art therapy will do you good Not meant in a rude way, just being honest 👍🤓
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts
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Quote:
On Mar 26, 2020, Mr. Woolery wrote: yeah, sure...should probably have added "nearly all"... I think remote viewing can be re-written and be about unconscious learning, as in, we've all been to many different people's houses over the years and probably built up a repository of items in our unconscious that make up a typical place, based on knowledge, guesswork, assumptions and culture for example...so we then mentally draw a concept in our mind's eye of what a particular place might look like...and we go from there... PK movement, to invoke the law of Brown, its already been done, and done very well - off the top of my head I definitely can't top it... maybe that's more about an altered state, and that's definitely in general field of psychology... in an altered state you may see something others don't, that kinda thing...
I've asked to be banned
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10602 Posts
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Typical Penny post...a magician comes here looking for what he wants to think is mentalism, he explains himself (thank you) and says he is taking the easy psychological approach to "mentalism" and is seeking info on how to do a magic trick within his "mentalism". Eventually, Iain comes in and of course, brings readings into it, and so on.
No assistance of the foundational understanding is the differences between magic and mentalism or the foundational aspects of mentalism (Chris at least made a mention), and now we have another misled magician and another thread on readings. What happened to mentalism in this forum? I miss Bob. |
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Chris K Inner circle 2544 Posts
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In regards to using psychological explanations for effects, or anything really, the question shouldn’t be can it be done but instead, can it be done well. Many of the justifications I see above read as transparent and weak ways to try to inject psychology into a magic trick (my general feelings for PK) but I’ve seen people able to convincingly pull them off. I still wouldn’t recommend them though.
I think the most basic advice still holds here: find something that is congruent with your character as well as the other effects you’re performing. If it’s not, move on. Most performances I’ve seen could use a serious case of editing (movie style): cut that as it shows things down, cut that as it just doesn’t fit in, etc. |
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Posted: Mar 26, 2020 06:14 am 
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