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Bill Palmer
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Just when I figured I had said enough about the Outagamie Museum's exhibit, an article appeared in the Houston Chronicle by Carrie Antflinger (AP). Since this carries an AP byline, I can only assume that it has appeared in other local newspapers.

Two things about this article caught my eye. One was that Ms. Antflinger revealed the way the Metamorphosis on exhibit worked. Suffice it to say, I feel this is heinous. I don't know whether it makes a difference, but of the two Metamorphoses that I have used, neither of them used a gaff in the location mentioned in the article, and both were constructed so that even a person in the know would not be able to find the gaff on close inspection.

Nevertheless, having been through the same thing with other illusions, I know that those poor souls who don't know how to handle the "I KNOW HOW THAT ONE WORKS, I SAW IT IN THE NEWSPAPER" cries from the moppets in the audience will have to let their illusions rest for a few months while the furor dies down.

The other part that caught my eye was a quote from the officials in charge of the display -- they said that the exhibit does not reveal anything that is not already available in books or on the Internet.

This statement is a key point of their logic. But the logic is flawed. The secrets of nuclear bomb making are available in books and on the internet. All sorts of other information that is potentially damaging is available in books and on the internet. Does that make it right to put it on display in a museum?

I don't think so.

The real irony of the display is that it is not using one of Houdini's trunks. We can thank God for that one!

Now, let me offer a suggestion or two as to how this can be handled in YOUR show, if you are doing Metamorphosis.

If your Metamorphosis is constructed like a takedown packing case, make a new side for it that has an easily detected gaffus in it. Bring a committee up on stage and have them glue the derned thing shut with superglue and check it for play!!!!

Then use the method you always use.

BTW, there is a fellow in Mexico who does it faster than the Pendragons!

So there!
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

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reedrc
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And there is a fellow in South Carolina who does it faster than the fellow in Mexico Smile hehe
Kind Regards

Ryan C. Reed
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Rob Johnston
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The article picture appeared in my local paper as well.

A picture with the musuem curators holding their arms up in the air (a want to be magician type gesture) and the trunk in the back ground.

They mentioned it is nothing you can't find on the internet and in books. Well..you can also find out how to make nuclear warheads on the web and in books!

It doesn't make it RIGHT!
"Genius is another word for magic, and the whole point of magic is that it is inexplicable." - Margot Fonteyn
RobertBloor
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Quote:
Bill Palmer: This statement is a key point of their logic. But the logic is flawed. The secrets of nuclear bomb making are available in books and on the internet.


Speaking of logic, Bill, there is none in this statement either.

I think it's funny that magicians are getting so riled up over this.

Robert Bloor
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Jack Murray
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For Robert and Payne from the other thread on this subject, I have a quote for you to ponder;

"If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything"

Maybe this is the "why" some of us are upset. If you don't understand this, we won't be able to explain it to you, and that's sad.

Jack
Payne
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But we do stand for something. We (or at least I) stand for not falling prey to the old "any form of exposure is bad" trap. I refuse to adopt the knee jerk reaction to exposure that my so called fellow Magi do.
I refuse to froth at the mouth and wring my hands and decry the horrors of the straw man that is exposure.
Magic has been routinely exposed for centuries and has manged to endure quite nicely.
In the end we just end up looking like a lot of pathetic cry babies whenever we get our hackles raised by the exposure of magical secrets.
And people wonder why magic isn't accepted as an artform.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Jack Murray
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You can't have it both ways!!! Either exposure [any kind] is alright or it isn't. I'm not crying, but I'm sorry you don't understand despite your claim you do.

Jack
RobertBloor
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Quote:
On 2004-06-03 19:36, Jack Murray wrote:
You can't have it both ways!!! Either exposure [any kind] is alright or it isn't. I'm not crying, but I'm sorry you don't understand despite your claim you do.

Jack


Jack,

I understand your passion for this. Let me step back and put this into perspective with a line from one of my favorite movies - Pirates of the Carribean...

When Jack Sparrow is in prison the other prisoners are talking about the Black Pearl and mention "...she never leaves any survivors."

To which Jack replies, "No Survivors: Then where do the stories come from I wonder?"

Let's apply that to magic - "No exposure: then how are there new magicians I wonder?"

Stand on your soap boxes (or better yet, sub trunks) and preach all you want about exposure being WRONG...

The fact is mate, without exposure you wouldn't be a magician and you'll have to square with that one day.

Robert Bloor
"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,"
-The Declaration of Independence
Jack Murray
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Give me a break!! Exposure is NOT learning the art of magic. These are TWO distinct different things.

Jack
RobertBloor
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Jack,

Could you ellaborate on the distinctions? Because I think they're the same thing.

Eventually the secrets get out.

I find it funny that you find exposure so wrong yet are willing to expose the illusions you build for the right price.

Come on mate, if you really think that audiences don't know how a sub trunk works, or how people get cut in half, then you're only fooling yourself and insulting your audience.

Robert Bloor
"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,"
-The Declaration of Independence
Bill Palmer
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There is a big difference between selling an illusion or the plans for it, teaching magic and exposing magic.

When you sell an illusion or a set of illusion plans, there are certain things that go into the sale. One is that the seller is assumed to have the right to sell the illusion or the plans. The second is that the buyer has an actual use for them. There is also an implied or real understanding that the purchaser will keep the secret. In some cases, a non-disclosure agreement is required before the transaction can take place. These are rare, but they do occur in the business. In any case, the number of plans and/or illusions that are sold to people with the specific intent of putting them on display for exposure is a very low percentage of total sales.

In the case of teaching a secret -- there's a similar transaction. The student pays the teacher for the knowledge, the teacher gives the knowledge to the student and shows him how to apply it. It's not just "Thanks for the five bucks, here's how you deal seconds." Look at the hassle our mutual friend Gazzo went through to learn the real work from Scott. In fact, with most magic teachers, there is a whole litany of learning that must be gone through before secrets of major illusions are laid open for them. That's entirely different from finding out a secret through exposure.

Exposure is completely different. Exposure takes place when a secret is revealed for little or nothing to a person or group of people who have absolutely no need to know the secret. If the children in the museum had any use for the secret to whatever cheap packing case was exposed, then I suppose this could be called "teaching." But certainly the video cameras who caught shots of it are part of the exposure process.

Even the Magic Circle has a minimum fee that is to be charged for sale of a mass market magic book. And yes, in the case of the Magic Circle, the dividing line is a fee.

The distinctions are pretty clear to most of us.

The main thing that we must do now is NOT object to it.

Do not write letters to CNN, your local paper or your local news service. If you do, this museum will be getting more publicity than they deserve. Already the chief turncoat in our midst has given them more than they should have had. Let's not help him along.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Jack Murray
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Well Robert, you have the answer from Mr. Palmer!!!!
"The distinctions are pretty clear to most of us."


Jack
RobertBloor
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Quote:
Bill Palmer: The main thing that we must do now is NOT object to it.

Do not write letters to CNN, your local paper or your local news service. If you do, this museum will be getting more publicity than they deserve. Already the chief turncoat in our midst has given them more than they should have had. Let's not help him along.


Bill,

I'll refer you to my post on TDL several days ago...
http://www.thedean.net/forum/index.php?s......try14274

We definitely agree on how to handle exposure at least.

Although, you'll never convince me that exposure is wrong in all shapes and forms. I don't buy it.

Robert Bloor
"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,"
-The Declaration of Independence
Bill Palmer
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Robert:

I don't see anything wrong with teaching. I do see a lot wrong with tipping methods that are currently used by working magicians to earn a living, for nothing more than publicity.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
muzicman
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This thread reminds of of a brief discussion I had with my 12 year old stepson. He is into professional wrestling and loves watching it and getting emotionally involved with the "sport". I personally don't care for it. I was attempting to find out why he found it so entertaining with the following phrase...

"Why do you like this stuff, you know it's all fake right"?

His reply caught me offguard....and it's something I'll never forget..

"Well so is magic but you still enjoy it"

I personally don't even try to come across that I possess any real magical powers. I correctly assume that my audience all know that there is some sort of "trick" or "secret" to my magic. Hopefully, my patter and presentation make them dispell this FACT and they turn into WWF style watchers. They know it's not "real" but they enjoy how you show it to them and eventually fool them just as they thought they couldn't be. There will ALWAYS be exposure. Heck, I was shown how to do the Australian megadeath Toe-hold
but that doesn't make me a professional wrestler. If I saw it performed in a ring anywhere I would likely turn to someone and explain "I know how that's done". It also amazes me how many audience members come up and ask me what kind of fishin line I use with my Zombie Ball. They THINK they KNOW how something is done but in the end, they were wrong all along. Don't fret over exposure. You cannot control others and what they do.....but you CAN control how you react to those that do.
hugmagic
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It is unfortunate this whole thing as gotten so much press. It should have never been exposed..no question..no discussion. My gosh, when Houdini did..Sir Arthur Conan Doyle believed he dematerialized and rematerialized. And Houdini did not do it especially fast.

I think in this day and age everyone knows there is some kind of secret panel or such. But I do not think it right for others to expose it. Like telling your young children there is not a Santa Claus or Easter Bunny.

Now I will offer a couple of things that will stump the laymen that think they know. Does anyone ever remember seeing Abbott's Canvas Covered Box? I think it would fool them all. Mark Wilson had the Aquarian Illusion. It is exclusive but it is a fooler.

I am sure that will it will eventually blow over as it always does.
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Kevin Ridgeway
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In my humble opinion. The exposure is wrong, but hey we can't stop the museum. But what we did not need to do was to blow this thing up to what it has become. The museum is loving this. They couldn't have paid for this much FREE publicity. We have several big names to thank for it too. We need to let this die down, but I don't think we should forget the ones that helped create the monster.
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Daniel Faith
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The difference between exposure and selling an illusion is so clear I don't understand why some don't see it.
Bill put it very well indeed.
Daniel Faith
Payne
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But the difference between selling an effect and exposing it isn't all that clear.
If you sell an effect to a person and then he turns around and exposes it are you not in the end partially responsible for the exposure as well?
Bartenders are responsible for damages caused by patrons they have served too many drinks to so why shouldn't the purveyors of magical supplies be held equally responsible for selling what ever magic item they wish to whomever they want to.
Should not magic shop owners check the intent and skill level of all of their patrons? Should just anyone be allowed to buy any form of magic they wish to without the proper credentials? Should secrets be allowed to fall into the hands of the simply curious?
Isn't this just another form of exposure plain and simple? Just because you have the cash to pay for a secret doesn't mean your entitled to it.
I myself do not subscribe to this philosophy but I know a few who do.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Jack Murray
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I think we are slipping into the realm of the rediculous!
Using your logic Payne, designers/authors like Jim Steinnmeyer, who sell their books "to anyone who has the money" is then "guilty of exposure".
Is this what you're purposing, because again I say you can't have it both ways.

Jack
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