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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricky business » » Zoom Or Remote Online Performances (66 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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thomasR
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I REALLY think it might be here to stay for a while. Of course none of us know. I’ve got shows and events booked starting in August. I’m sure hoping it’s back to normal by then but I also know that it might not be.

Here’s the thing... jo-jo the clown doesn’t care what danny or mindpro thinks. He’s entertaining a kid who’s birthday was just cancelled.

Shawn Farquhar isn’t worried that imgic thought he was boring. He gave a great show that his fans, like me, enjoyed.

And for the record... the concerns are real. You should want to do a good show, represent yourself and Magic well. Represent the variety arts well!
Dannydoyle
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On Apr 14, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:

Hey have at it. Do what you want man. If it is right for you it is right for you.


Not in the habit of quoting myself but did you MISS the part where I said if it is right for you it is right for you and just do it? Go ahead do it. Develop your circus on the internet show! Go ahead. I never said anyone had to agree with me at all. If you want to devalue your product have at it.

But why would I pay for a magic show from a clown, when I have all the streaming devices on the planet that have this very medium covered? What is going to make a birthday party mom sit the kids in front of the TV and watch that over the billion dollar company offerings?

You miss the point entirely. If you think this is here to stay then good for you. I bet you're right. Disney will probably close ALL theme parks, all live restaurants will stay closed, Broadway will not reopen, Vegas is a thing of the past and all will be done via the internet now. Nobody will go to movies any more. It is over for any form of live entertainment in our world.

OR it could be that after the 1918 Spanish Flu in which 675,000 Americans died Vaudeville THRIVED. It was a time like no other for live entertainment and the variety arts. It could be that after Pearl Harbor and 9/11 the country moved on. It could be that the American public moves on. But I doubt it. You are right. This is here to stay. Unlike every other time in history THIS is the thing that will change the way America lives.

I suggest less TV.

And who said that you shouldn't do a good show? Where did you get that from?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Ray Pierce
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For me, it's just a different medium with different needs and requirements. I know people that do amazingly well in a close up or strolling environment but can't deliver in front of 2,500 people. Yes, I know that those are both live mediums and this online stuff isn't but it still requires understanding that particular medium as its own market which I'll admit I do not. On the other hand I am fortunate to get to work with many who do and it amazes me just how much I don't know about it! YouTube has a huge studio complex here in LA where their artists (That meet certain minimum viewer requirements) can go in for free and use the studios, lighting, gear... everything to produce new content. In fact, even for traditional television, casting people are starting to ask how many "followers" you have as a prerequisite for being considered for certain projects. Now, traditional television is trying to leverage viewers from other mediums to build their own base. That being said, the largest part of the bell curve for performance medium is the mediocre artist. When desktop publishing came out, everyone was crying about how it would end books as we knew them because EVERYONE would be able to put one out. Well, it did create a deluge of really bad product but the cream always rises and there were many people with great thoughts that came out as they might not have been able to earlier. The same thing happened when consumer video became widely available. Likewise with online video, YouTube and streaming. It has made exposure available to anyone and everyone and most people are really mediocre and not worthy of any time. On the other hand there are those few who are creative and leverage the medium in better ways. Danny Cole has created a lot of amazing content as have many others. You just have to search more for them. Again, it's not giving away the farm, it's learning a new medium and is hard to compare in traditional terms... something I'm having to come to grips with as well!
Ray Pierce
<BR>www.HollywoodAerialArts.com
Mindpro
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Quote:
On Apr 14, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
You miss the point entirely. If you think this is here to stay then good for you. I bet you're right. Disney will probably close ALL theme parks, all live restaurants will stay closed, Broadway will not reopen, Vegas is a thing of the past and all will be done via the internet now. Nobody will go to movies any more. It is over for any form of live entertainment in our world.

OR it could be that after the 1918 Spanish Flu in which 675,000 Americans died Vaudeville THRIVED. It was a time like no other for live entertainment and the variety arts. It could be that after Pearl Harbor and 9/11 the country moved on. It could be that the American public moves on. But I doubt it. You are right. This is here to stay. Unlike every other time in history THIS is the thing that will change the way America lives.



Exactly! To me, this time is very telling on a much bigger picture of how magicians and performers tend to think and operate. Everything is simply based on personal opinion and knee-jerk, short-term reactions. As I regularly express here, few performers these days operate from an industry perspective or what is best and in the greater picture for the industry. This is a great example of it and soooo telling.

All of this is temporary at best. The performance dynamics for anything streaming is simply NOT the same as actual live performances - period. This needs to be understood and accepted first and foremost. This single fact is all one needs to know of why this will not be here to stay or any kind of lasting format for live performances. Those that work, operate, and exist from an industry perspective quickly and easily realize this, only "me-based performers" would even begin to think otherwise. These are also the ones panicking and hanging on everything they pick and choose to listen to in the media.

As Danny said, live entertainment has survived much worse than this and always makes a strong return or comeback. I have already been getting indicators of this at even this early point. The second half of this year will bounce back and I am confident that 2021 will be one of the strongest live entertainment years in recent history.

With that said, there is a way for live stream entertainment to be produced and performed during this temporary period but it must be different than regular conventional performing. It must be a different format than just doing your regular performance for the camera. This is the answer for everyone acting out of desperation or thinking it is the need of customers and clients (or the "if we don't do it someone else will-mentality) are currently thinking. It must not affect the value of their normal live performance, so a different format can offer a different value without affecting their current or future value for once this passes. It takes some thought, effort, creativity and industry understanding, but this is the answer for those thinking they "have" to offer streaming services for temporary survival.

So many are just doing very limited, only on the surface level, to end of their nose level thinking. This needs to be something different and something that will not be seen or confused with their regular performances. It can't be offering "the same" in a different format (streaming).
charliecheckers
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Quote:
On Apr 14, 2020, Mindpro wrote:
With that said, there is a way for live stream entertainment to be produced and performed during this temporary period but it must be different than regular conventional performing. It must be a different format than just doing your regular performance for the camera. This is the answer for everyone acting out of desperation or thinking it is the need of customers and clients (or the "if we don't do it someone else will-mentality) are currently thinking. It must not affect the value of their normal live performance, so a different format can offer a different value without affecting their current or future value for once this passes. It takes some thought, effort, creativity and industry understanding, but this is the answer for those thinking they "have" to offer streaming services for temporary survival.

So many are just doing very limited, only on the surface level, to end of their nose level thinking. This needs to be something different and something that will not be seen or confused with their regular performances. It can't be offering "the same" in a different format (streaming).


So well said! For those who contend that Mindpro never offers “real” advice here, reread his post. People should feel great that they spent the time and effort to come to Tricky Business to read this type of advice. It is this type of thinking that can separate performers and avoid mediocrity. Ray pointed out the advantage of studio quality production. This is what we need to be thinking about and where our conversations should be going if we are serious about producing content consistent with our brands. These are the conversations my brother has been having with Mindpro for the past month. Not streaming his live performance, that’s crazy. He has been considering options to meet his customers needs in a different way. Those who are able to do so successfully, may discover new or improved ways to offer value to their market. For many, it may be best just to wait it out until live shows return.
imgic
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For the record, I never said Shawn was boring. I enjoyed his stream from a technical standpoint. But without an audience, the interaction is gone, the energy is missing, and I did not find it enjoyable to watch from entertainment viewpoint.

That's why Mindpro's advice is spot on. There are acts that could do well in a live stream...Stuart MacDonald's Haunted Mirror Act, Shin Lim's doing cards, and others. But just doing same audience based acts...with the energy missing, it's not that enjoyable.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge."
Dannydoyle
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Bingo.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
thomasR
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On Apr 15, 2020, imgic wrote:
For the record, I never said Shawn was boring. I enjoyed his stream from a technical standpoint. But without an audience, the interaction is gone, the energy is missing, and I did not find it enjoyable to watch from entertainment viewpoint.

That's why Mindpro's advice is spot on. There are acts that could do well in a live stream...Stuart MacDonald's Haunted Mirror Act, Shin Lim's doing cards, and others. But just doing same audience based acts...with the energy missing, it's not that enjoyable.


Sorry about that... You said “painful” and I remembered it as “boring” - my mistake. I thought it was very entertaining but I’m also watching ragtime piano players doing live streams so who’s to say? Smile
Dannydoyle
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Who is his market? Magicians sit through magic lectures for God sake. So if the market is them great. If this as you say is the future I'm going to go ahead and doubt it replaces live entertainment. Come back in August and show me how wrong I am.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
thomasR
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On Apr 15, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Who is his market? Magicians sit through magic lectures for God sake. So if the market is them great. If this as you say is the future I'm going to go ahead and doubt it replaces live entertainment. Come back in August and show me how wrong I am.


Since it was on Facebook it was his 7,000 Facebook fans. I have no idea how those numbers break down.... I’m sure it’s a lot of magicians.
Now Matt Franco with 120k!!! Wow.

Danny I’m not saying it’s the future... I’m saying it might be. I want to be wrong! I have gigs booked in August and I want them to happen!
Dannydoyle
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Why might it be? Again turn off your tv and computer just for a few days.

And there is ZERO chance this is the future. It is temporary and if it lasts through June that will be a long time.

But again come back and prove me wrong.

You have NO CLUE how many fans watched it. Facebook has always been a fake representation of popularity.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
charliecheckers
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I think when live audience shows “comes back” may differ for us based on a few variables such as where we are located, who our state leaders are, and what markets we serve. More affected areas may be more conservative.
In markets that are governed by the government, such as schools and libraries, there may be more stringent guidance to preserving social distancing for a longer period of time than commercial entities. Also, this is such a highly emotionally charged time right now, we really need to see how long it remains that way. Obviously, how the numbers of hospitalized patients and deaths continue to play out will be a huge factor as well.
Dannydoyle
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The number fudging is becoming obvious.

The speed with which it comes back will vary. But once it is happening it will happen quickly as possible.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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On Apr 15, 2020, charliecheckers wrote:
So well said! For those who contend that Mindpro never offers “real” advice here, reread his post. People should feel great that they spent the time and effort to come to Tricky Business to read this type of advice. It is this type of thinking that can separate performers and avoid mediocrity.


Thanks, for the kind words. However, there will still be some here that will read the exact same thing that you did and will still fail to understand, see the real point, value or information I offered and will still claim I didn't say anything, lol.

Unfortunately, the reality is I provide such great, "real" advice here quite regularly in many of my posts but some here fail to understand and digest it (and it's proper context as intended) as you have charliecheckers.

I haven't connected with you in a while, so I know you are an M.D. and on the front lines (hospital) of things in New York. I hope you are well and staying safe!
Mindpro
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On Apr 14, 2020, thomasR wrote:
And if you don’t do it. Others will. You can stay stuck In the past or you can evolve and adapt.


This is bothering me greatly and keeps resonating through my head because this is how consumer market, basic level magicians/business owners think and operate.

Danny's response was exactly the same as mine - So What?

The ones that will be doing this will:

1. Be bandwagon jumpers thinking they are "serving their customers" and almost always will accept this BEFORE knowing, thinking or creating the product

2. Almost likely will be doing a poorly produced and received product. Then they will only base the success of it on the feedback they receive for the hiring clients - again, a terrible, unreal perception for performers to follow. An unreal, untrue means or basis.

So What? So what if someone else is the one to do this first and to do this poorly or be disappointing?
So what if someone is asking for something like this? I know how these conversations are going which is something like "could you do any kind of online (streaming, digital, etc.) performance?" They don't know what they are asking or talking about, simply just grasping for some ideas or possibilities. They are doing this without much real thought of the realities of this, without really thinking or understanding the differences, without any knowledge about the difference in dynamics, and the worst part of this is they will not have any different expectations toward your digital performance. They will expect the same as they were for your live event.

These all stack up against the performer. I have had several students this week and last week decline these ideas if (really only one or two) someone were to ask such type of questions. Thye took the time to create a well-crafted response to point out these such differences, not to mention the differences of how their audience would perceive and accept such performances and all immediately understood and were gracious and appreciative for such insight which they would have never thought of. In both cases, that actually thanked the performer for such wisdom and insight, rather than being sold something which would likely disappoint and fall far short of expectations.

So why set yourself up for failure?

LET someone else do it - they will likely do it poorly anyhow, which is also better for you.

I can't really think of many reasons TO DO this. Yes, I have been working with several who are doing this, but they have been working in this market long before this and are not just throwing something together for during this strained time.

This is a business move that could have serious ramifications. So why would you change not only your whole business model, bit now performance model "just because someone has asked" or because of this CVIS-19 temporary period? Even for the money, it is not worth it in the bigger picture.

We should never try to "serve" someone with something we are not qualified to do. This, to me, is exactly the same a someone that has no experience in working a certain type of market or performance, yet is asked, so they accept a gig and come to the Magic Café with a post saying "I am a closeup card magician, but I had someone inquire about booking me for a stage performance for 200 guests next Friday Night. After some thought, it paid good money, so I accepted it. I would appreciate any help from anyone to steer me toward some tricks I could learn that would be good for this..." It's really the same thing.

I in no way see this as evolving or being a "stuck in the past" issue. Who controls your business, you or the uninformed, uneducated client and their requests? Thousands of live performers will not turn to any type of digital performance an dit in no way makes them "stuck in the past" - this is ridiculous.

As for the Dave Matthews thing, you are comparing kumquats and watermelons. Music and magic are in no way the same thing or even from similar families. Music is meant to be enjoyed and consumed privately and personally. Sure there are concerts, but the same music can be enjoyed one on one personally - hence live albums. Not even close to magic or other live variety performers
thomasR
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Awesome. We see things differently. Smile
Dannydoyle
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On Apr 15, 2020, thomasR wrote:
Awesome. We see things differently. Smile


Come back and show us your amazing success. Come back in August and show us how wrong we are. I'll happily admit it if I am.

Will you do the same?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
thomasR
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Danny.... I already said I’ve got shows booked for August. If those happen I’ll buy you a latte next time I’m in Hoboken!
Dannydoyle
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I am talking about this being permanent. I am talking about this staying the way it is.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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I wouldn't be surprised if many of these guys that are jumping into the digital performances will be back here later in the year or next year complaining about how they are having trouble getting full-price bookings or being seen as they wish to be and at their proper value.

Also thomasR - your comment "Awesome. We see things differently" is my exact point. That would be fine if we were comparing opinions, but this is the difference between industry perspectives and operations (factual, real) and personal opinion. That was my earlier point that most are operating from a "me "or opinion position.
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