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Dannydoyle
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Hey do what you want. I don't care. But don't portray this as me somehow coming around. I stand by my belief that taking the live out of live entertainment is a huge mistake FOR ME. If you want to claim that since prior to the pandemic you were moving in this direction good for you. If you don't have to be in the room good for you. If the audience prefers you not being there fantastic.

I have in no way changed my mind. I have been totally shocked at how long this lasted. I am happy to discuss with guys like Nash who are being real, not preachy. I to date have turned down about 2 dozen online shows because I would not do them. I for one simply will not do it. And no Tom nobody is crying, just looking to the future.

I have not needed to do this. I live where we can still do shows so it never came up in any real way. I still think it is a HUGE positioning mistake to charge less for online shows. Also "how can I miss you if you won't go away" applies. These are the points I was making Brian and I have not changed them one bit.

Tom as far as I know you have done the same number of virtual shows as live and that is zero recently so your opinion is less than useful.

None of this says anything about just how bad most of the online shows are.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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True I have done zero virtual magic shows, but in the beginning, nobody here had done any either. Still, I had confidence that some here could make it work. I learned a long time ago that if you really want to HELP people you cheer them on. You donít plant seeds of doubt in order to brag on yourself.



Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

www.tomboleware.com
BrianMillerMagic
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Quote:
On Jan 1, 2021, Dannydoyle wrote:
If you want to claim that since prior to the pandemic you were moving in this direction good for you.


I never claimed that, anywhere. I wasnít. Of course I wasnít. I pivoted in one week in March and got to work. I had a baby on the way and a household to support. It was a choice made out of necessity. But as long as youíre going to do something, you may as well do it to the best of your ability, and enjoy it as best you can. Turns out you can decide to love your work, you donít have to only do work you think youíll love.


Quote:
If you don't have to be in the room good for you. If the audience prefers you not being there fantastic.


I am in the room, and I am there. Iím right on their computer, laptop, or phone.

And might I add, what a privilege and honor it is to have thousands of people around the world want to watch your show listen to your talk, participate in your workshop, regardless of the medium.

You had two dozen clients trust you enough to come to you, ask you to provide an escape and a connection in the darkest of times, and you turned them away because you simply didn't feel like it?

To me, that's such a strange way to treat the lucky position you're in.

Quote:
I to date have turned down about 2 dozen online shows because I would not do them. I for one simply will not do it.


What good fortune to be able to sit on your hands and wait out a pandemic that wiped out the entire global entertainment and events industry. But spending 8 months telling others that what theyíre doing isnít worth doing, isnít good enough, isnít Ďrealí or Ďrightí? Thatís silly. Sit it out if youíre lucky enough to be able to do that, and also completely uninterested in evolving your craft to a new medium. Just donít tell others theyíre doing it wrong or making a mistake.

Quote:
I still think it is a HUGE positioning mistake to charge less for online shows.


Most of us arenít charging less. Weíre charging more in all cases. In some cases much more. I wrote that back in May, and I wrote it again today. You must have missed it.

Quote:
None of this says anything about just how bad most of the online shows are.


Most in-person magic shows are bad too. Even from professionals, and even from full-timers. Many virtual shows are quite good. Some are excellent. A few are works of art. Just like always.

Lastly, you keep saying ďlive showsĒ as a way to distinguish from virtual. Virtual shows are live. You know that, right? Theyíre live, real-time, and interactive. Theyíre just not in-person.
Dannydoyle
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Blah blah blah just like your posts have all seemed to become. Your world only seems to involve your little point of view doesn't it?

But OK you are simply NOT charging more, much more, for a virtual show. It is not happening. Not regularly.

As for the reasons I don't do them you can't see the forest because all those stupid trees are in your way as usual. No you are NOT in the room and it is NOT live no matter how you want to pretend and spin it. You are in your living room and they are in another room. PERIOD. No more than seeing a live taped SNL show is the same as being in the audience. The fact that somehow you want to dispute this undisputable FACT shows just how far you are willing to bend into mental pretzels to justify your position. It is NOT THE SAME as being in a live in person audience. Get over it. When you have to debate semantics to try to justify a position it might be time to think about that position a bit.

And work on comprehension please. I did NOT sit on my hands. I was canceled on Broadway and moved back to our house in Branson and I am doing live in person shows with audiences. We do them according to CDC guidelines and local ordinances. What is so hard for you to comprehend about this Brian? I have NO INTENTION of what you call "evolving my my craft" because I believe it is "DEVOLVING my craft". And I absolutely CAN tell others I think it is wrong and why. Get over yourself you are not a magic moderator of some sort. You can think it is right, and believe it or not others can have an opposing viewpoint. That was how life worked prior to millennials.

As for why I would not do them it is multi fold. I would be at best mediocre at it. That is about as high a level as I could achieve. I know my skill set, I know what I can and can not realistically do so part of my disinterest is participating in mediocrity. You don't mind doing so great, I do. Interesting in that most of what is posted here is as examples of greatness. I think it is examples of the problem. and again let me mention I HAVE BEEN DOING LIVE SHOWS IN PERSON. Can't stress that enough. Why would I do virtual shows when I do live shows? You see the world only through your own lenses. It is foolish to think the entire world was affected the way that the East Coast was. You hide behind the fact that most magic shows are bad as a way to justify putting out other bad magic shows. Certainly you see the ludicrous nature of that don't you?

While we don't work in Mexico or on Broadway any more, here in Branson shows are happening. One magician here in town did a land office business this year. Should we both just pivot to virtual shows because you say so and to "evolve our craft"? How ridiculous.

And again the idea that you teach them that it is OK if you are simply not there to me is ridiculous. I won't change that position ever. It is silly. I KNOW why guys are doing it and I can respect that decision. But you have NO CLUE what it will do in the future to the positioning of each guy. If your history is any indication it will be just the best thing you ever did. Just like EVERYTHING you ever do it will turn out that is is just the best thing ever. In reality a lot of guys will be tarnished with the bad shows and lower prices and not having to be in the room.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
BrianMillerMagic
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Quote:
On Jan 1, 2021, Dannydoyle wrote:
Blah blah blah just like your posts have all seemed to become. Your world only seems to involve your little point of view doesn't it?

But OK you are simply NOT charging more, much more, for a virtual show. It is not happening. Not regularly.



I mean, we are. For every one. Since the beginning. The price has been either the same as it used to be or more. In many cases, much more. So, Iím not sure what else to say about that. So are nearly all of my colleagues in the college and corporate markets.

The fact you find this impossible to believe, when I almost exclusively know magicians who have succeeded in regularly charging the same or higher fees than they used to, seems to indicate we have a completely different group of people around us.

And Iím not arguing that you should be doing virtual. Iím saying your relentless negativity about virtual since March is unnecessary, off-base, and damaging to those who want to make the leap but havenít yet, because they believe people like you who, in fact, have a very narrow view of whatís possible in the virtual space because, by your own admission, you arenít doing it.

To what end do you choose to be negative and dismissive rather than encouraging and optimistic? Why not build people up?
thomasR
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On Jan 1, 2021, BrianMillerMagic wrote:

To what end do you choose to be negative and dismissive rather than encouraging and optimistic? Why not build people up?


Thatís all that Danny and Mindpro know how to do. Itís a shame that they have taken over trickybusiness and bully people the way that they do.

One look at Brianís website and itís clear heís the real deal. I wish he could post more often without getting instantly attacked. He could be a huge help to so many.
Dannydoyle
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So having a different point of view is bullying? "

If someone is about to jump off a cliff do you build them up so they can do it? How about running into traffic? Just build them up and let them have at it? Why isn't anyone allowed to disagree? Why is disagreement automatically negative?

To what end? Oh I don't know, how about to help people see all sides prior to investing time and money and standing in something that they may not understand all the downstream consequences of their actions?

Why be encouraging and optimistic for a poor idea. Take this idea off the table. Thomas wants to run his mouth about this whole section. So is it "helping" to let people implement bad ideas that are going to cost them time, money and standing. ESPECIALLY when they are suggested by those NOT IN THE BUSINESS?

Because here is the deal. In life, in BUSINESS, NOBODY is just going to encourage you and coddle you and make sure your feelings are not hurt and whatever millennial nonsense you seem to want. In the real world you are going to lose real money real fast. I believe it is better to help someone avoid those pitfalls. Even if they are ego bruised at the start. You may believe differently but that is OK isn't it? Or is it that you are just tolerant of viewpoints that agree with you, encourage you and build you up? Only hearing things that make you feel better and such is more important than results right?

It is bullying to you when someone disagrees? It is bullying when someone has a different experience and the share it?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jan 1, 2021, BrianMillerMagic wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 1, 2021, Dannydoyle wrote:
Blah blah blah just like your posts have all seemed to become. Your world only seems to involve your little point of view doesn't it?

But OK you are simply NOT charging more, much more, for a virtual show. It is not happening. Not regularly.


The fact you find this impossible to believe, when I almost exclusively know magicians who have succeeded in regularly charging the same or higher fees than they used to, seems to indicate we have a completely different group of people around us.



Actually it seems to indicate something else. You have left out at least one thing I can think of that this can indicate. Seems as if it is the far more likely scenario.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
BrianMillerMagic
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Quote:
On Jan 1, 2021, Dannydoyle wrote:
Because here is the deal. In life, in BUSINESS, NOBODY is just going to encourage you and coddle you and make sure your feelings are not hurt and whatever millennial nonsense you seem to want. In the real world you are going to lose real money real fast.


Maybe in your world, and in your business, nobody encourages you or has any empathy for you as a fellow human being. And maybe thatís why youíre so dismissive and negative, because thatís all you know.

In my world and in my business people are encouraging, optimistic, and open to exploring new ideas. We build each other up, give each other the courage to take risks, and catch each other when our leaps of faith donít turn out quite the way weíd hoped.

Not every idea is a good one, granted. But thatís all part of it, isnít it?

This particular idea, virtual, was born out of necessity for everyone. And, again, if all youíre doing is sticking a webcam in front of the show you used to do in-person, then youíve missed the opportunity this medium offers. That was fine in March and April, but by January 2021, most professionals figured out how to embrace the technology available and meet our audiences, and clients, where theyíre at.

Your ďcharging less is bad positioning thatís going to hurt you in the long termĒ strawman has been blown down over and over again. Sure, the same magicians who were undercharging in-person events are still undercharging virtual. In pro B2B markets, rates have increased across the board, for so many reasons. And clients are really quite happy to pay them because of the way weíve positioned the new rates, and the way their budgets have been adjusted.

Mindpro tried to talk about this back in May but it fell on deaf ears. He knows whatís really going on in the industry. You seem to respect him, so Iím not sure why you find this so difficult to believe?

Oh, and to your earlier comment today, when you snarked, ďEverything you do is the best thing ever.Ē

Thatís exactly the negative attitude Iím talking about. Why on earth do you find it prudent to dismiss a growth mindset? I built a sustainable career, one that it turns out could even survive the great pivot to virtual of 2020.

In your mind, thatís something to be ashamed of? To be looked down upon? That Iím proud of my decisions, have learned from my mistakes in life and business, and grown a successful career from the ground up, is somehow not worthy because I have a positive outlook?
BrianMillerMagic
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Quote:
On Jan 1, 2021, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 1, 2021, BrianMillerMagic wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 1, 2021, Dannydoyle wrote:
Blah blah blah just like your posts have all seemed to become. Your world only seems to involve your little point of view doesn't it?

But OK you are simply NOT charging more, much more, for a virtual show. It is not happening. Not regularly.


The fact you find this impossible to believe, when I almost exclusively know magicians who have succeeded in regularly charging the same or higher fees than they used to, seems to indicate we have a completely different group of people around us.



Actually it seems to indicate something else. You have left out at least one thing I can think of that this can indicate. Seems as if it is the far more likely scenario.


If you want to know what Iím charging, because you think the only way we could have increased our fees is if we were charging too little or undercutting in the first place, just send me a private message and Iíll screenshot you invoices.
Dannydoyle
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Please don't. You have NOTHING to prove to me. Please do not do such a thing.

This does not need to become this. The heat needs to be backed off here. Please let's both not be at the point where screenshots of invoices are needed.

Let's all take a breath. This is an important subject at an important time. Let's not make it something not worth reading. Fair? (That applies to me also!)

Having a different point of view is not unhealthy.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
BrianMillerMagic
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On Jan 1, 2021, Dannydoyle wrote:
Fair? (That applies to me also!)


Fair.

You donít believe virtual is a good idea, for your own reasons, and thatís fine.

To any magician reading this who has been on the fence about virtual events all year, who may have been hoping the world would come back to normal a bit sooner, and is now either regretting not getting into the game sooner or simply doesnít know where to start, reach out to me. Iíve been taking calls with magicians all over the world all year, helping folks get their virtual shows in shape in terms of tech, content, and some marketing fundamentals for whatís changed in buying habits since COVID.

No charge, no sales pitch, no email list. Just magicians helping magicians.

And if I canít help you, I can point you to the guy who will.

To quote my mentor, all of us are stronger than any of us. Iím here if you need it.
Dannydoyle
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I am actually NOT optimistic about how quickly entertainment venues will be back in the game.

I would also add that if you are debating doing this, my considerations aside, it my not be the dumbest thing ever to get in the game. There are guys who pioneered the medium to learn from. (You can always spot a pioneer because he is the guy with all the arrows in his back.) If your choices are zero income or some income, well if I am any judge of which number is bigger than the other I would go with some income. I would only caution that as things DO come back to be mindful of positioning and such. (If you are like me and will offer little more than mediocre maybe staying out of it might be the best thing for you and the audience.)

I don't know if in many parts of the country restaurant magic will be a thing within even THIS year. No joke it is not ONLY because of virus concerns but so many have taken SUCH huge hits that it might be tough to justify the expense. Comedy clubs are based on lots of people in really small areas. Cruise ships unfortunately took bad PR at the start of this thing for NO REASON. Touring shows will face different rules in different places. I look at all this and just think how fortunate we really are here.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
thomasR
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On Jan 1, 2021, BrianMillerMagic wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 1, 2021, Dannydoyle wrote:
Because here is the deal. In life, in BUSINESS, NOBODY is just going to encourage you and coddle you and make sure your feelings are not hurt and whatever millennial nonsense you seem to want. In the real world you are going to lose real money real fast.


Maybe in your world, and in your business, nobody encourages you or has any empathy for you as a fellow human being. And maybe thatís why youíre so dismissive and negative, because thatís all you know.


Thatís the thing, I truly feel sorry for Danny. If he thinks thatís life and thatís business... man what a sad life to have lived.
Dannydoyle
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Oh lord you children are just hard to deal with.

So you're telling me that being mediocre is just fine? That you pick a company based on that?

I'm telling you that once you are in business the job is to get that job done. Clients don't care or want to know. Competition is going to try to be the best at whatever particular field you are in. I have never completely bombed a task and had a client say "oh well you tried I'm going to make sure we use you next time." Grow up.

A sad life? It is the life of one who runs successful businesses. (Brian I'm assuming you do.) Thomas you WORK FOR people who do. And maybe that is why. You are around the fringes of show business but you don't have to meet a payroll, and do the thousands of things that need to be done to run one successfully for 25 plus years.

Show me the books on how to be mediocre. I know you're just getting in digs where you can and this is something you want to jump on so that is what it is. Go for it but it makes you look really silly to anyone who runs businesses.

In business it is not the customer's job to worry about your feelings. It is your job to do your job. Period. Go ahead and be mediocre and worry about how you feel. But it is a customer service business we have in the end. I'm not really sure how you and your feelings enter into the picture.

But go ahead and keep pretending if that is what it takes
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
BrianMillerMagic
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Quote:
On Jan 1, 2021, Dannydoyle wrote:
Oh lord you children are just hard to deal with.

Show me the books on how to be mediocre. I know you're just getting in digs where you can and this is something you want to jump on so that is what it is. Go for it but it makes you look really silly to anyone who runs businesses.


Calling fully grown adults Ďchildrení is an example of why people think youíre a bully. And the irony is that you think ďmillennialsĒ are too soft.

And again, hereís a strawman. You keep making an argument against mediocrity. But no one is talking about being mediocre except you. My virtual show isnít mediocre. Nor are the shows of the professionals in my circle and markets.

In March and April? Sure, they were the best they could be with no planning or preparation. And you know what? Clients and audiences were THRILLED back then, because they had no solution and a desperate need for something uplifting.

Now, 8+ months later, these shows have been workshopped and rehearsed like none of us have ever done before, and in an incredibly short time frame. The shows are top notch, professional pieces.

Virtual magic is new. Itís not a new version of the old thing. Itís a new thing. And with that comes a completely different set of expectations. Those of us on the front lines of virtual entertainment since day one have been crafting those expectations and writing the new rules. Itís exhilarating and creatively fulfilling.

Youíve openly admitted you would be mediocre at virtual events. I donít actually believe that, but you do, so you stayed out. Thatís fine. But to put that on the rest of us, to simply wave your hand and say ďall virtual events are mediocre and therefore bad for business in the long runĒ is absurd.

The medium doesnít work for you, you donít need it, youíre not willing to put in the work to be exceptional at virtual events, or whatever. You do you.

Telling everyone else it also doesnít or shouldnít work for them, that the best they can hope for is to be mediocre, is baseless and flat out untrue.

Weíre at a standstill. I respect your perspective on virtual, for YOU. Where we disagree is putting that perspective on everyone else.
Dannydoyle
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Finally. You got my point. I have said FOR ME all along and still everyone insists the other way.

And by the way when Thomas jumps back in to stir the pot and act like a child, calling that behavior out is simply descriptive, not being a bully.

And no it is not a strawman at all to point out that the HUGE majority of online shows are mediocre. Intentional or not they ARE. While maybe people strive for more they simply do not get more.

Here is what is being missed by us all. Magic itself is not a great vehicle for streaming shows. It is best experienced live. We are in a time, for who knows how long, where for much of the world this is just not going to be realistic.

I was wrong, and I hope you're reading still, when I said I hadn't changed my mind. Had I suspected for a second that this would last, much less how long it WILL LAST, I would rethink if this was a good idea FOR OTHERS. For me it would simply not work and that does not change.

Bottom line is if there is an audience subdue should try to provide that service.

The main problem as I see it is most do not know their limitations and often even refuse to think they have any. This is often a recipe for disaster. We have seen plenty of examples of just that online.

And by the way just to be clear yes being in a position to be able to absorb this hit without having to worry about online shows is indeed fortunate. It comes from hard work for decades and running a successful business. It is not a coincidence.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
thomasR
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Lol. Iím not the one calling people names.
What a sad life you must live if this is how you spend your time.
Dannydoyle
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And yet ironically enough you make such a judgement, when it is EXACTLY how you are spending your own time. Hmmm. Just stirring the pot and nothing more. I guess that is even more sad isn't it?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Pride is the problem, humility is the answer.

Humility need not be viewed as a weakness or a sign of insecurity, it's quite the opposite. I have always said magic needs more team players. We should welcome working magicians like Brain here and not insist their success is wrong because they reached it in a different way.

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

www.tomboleware.com
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