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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9987 Posts 
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One problem with giving credit in nay form is that of crediting "first published" rathe than "created" or even
acknowledgment of who made a sleight seem important. Publishing credit can help a person do additional research for an idea they like, but today with Internet search every teenager is better equipped to check out all versions and claims. Giving credit might even restrict a search. Where did the idea of giving credit come from anyway? Somehow it seems linked to "who gets paid" more than creativity. What is "exposed?" What is revealed?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21263 Posts
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It is just not possible in performance.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts
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I see two different things here.
First, when performing for the general public, I would expect someone who presents himself or herself as a magician to do magic, i.e., to do something that appears impossible. Yeah, they are "tricks," but I would want that performer to do them in such a way that it appears that they are making the magic happen. For that performer to "give credit" to someone else amounts to demonstrating a gadget or a routine: suddenly the performer isn't making the magic happen -- anybody with the prop or the [whatever] can do it too. That's not a magician. Second, when doing it at the magic club or for other people who perform magic, then, sure, give credit as appropriate. It's a different audience. There, you basically are demonstrating a trick.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5930 Posts
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On Jun 25, 2021, Dannydoyle wrote: Wether you believe you can or you believe you can’t, you are correct. |
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5930 Posts
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On Jun 25, 2021, George Ledo wrote: I think most people understand the concept of teachers and mentors enough to understand that just because someone else taught you something doesn’t make it commonplace. Your limitation is that your model has the magician creating/discovering everything he does without any direction from others. While that certainly is one possible theatrical choice, it isn’t the only one. It isn’t even a very common one in story telling and myths. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21263 Posts
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On Jul 1, 2021, Tom Cutts wrote: Not relevant. If someone wants to go through crediting every effect and every move done in a show have at it. Odd how singers and jugglers and comics and tap dancers and other artists do no such thing in general. Sure it can be done. Often it can spotlight a particular routine. Doing it correctly and accurately fit every piece in a show might not be necessary.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5930 Posts
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On Jul 1, 2021, Dannydoyle wrote: Interesting, you went from “not possible” to “it can be done” albeit while dragging out some wonderful reductio ad absurdum. ( and curse you for making me look that up, I can never remember the exact phrase  ). Not to mention you want to call it irrelevant, but you then prove its relevance by the existence of therest of your words. If it were truly irrelevant, that statement alone would be enough.
Not your best Dannyisms. I’ll simply close with this for George. Most of the world has some exposure to the Harry Potter story line. They don’t seem to be put off by the concept that magic is learned from others. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21263 Posts
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I guess "It CAN'T be done" is too big a blanket statement. Yes if you want to nit pick and use the Greg Brady "exact words" standard cool go ahead.
In performance it might be a bit unwieldly to get it done and tracing back some of the origins of this back all the way to the beginning of the first person to ever do a classic force (Which would HAVE to be part of the process if we use the Greg Brady exact words standard wouldn't it?) would be a bit less than entertaining to most audiences. Your mileage might vary. (And reductio ad abaurdum IS a valid form of argument.) So nit pick away. No worries. I would love to see an entire mainstream successful magic presentation in which the entire origin of every move as it is done is credited throughout the performance. Many will use the "style" of this idea like Ricky Jay. Heck I do it myself in my close up show. It can be a wonderful story telling device. Often these things are just not as accurate as they would need to be in order to comply with the Greg Brady exact words standard, for the stated reason of it being unwieldly, AND often can run to the less entertaining side of things. But when speaking colloquially, as I was, using the statement I did was just not as far off.. Fair warning, I tend to speak and write in such a fashion. I am sorry that seems to get you upset. It is certainly not my intent.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5930 Posts
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I’m not upset, Danny. And kudos on the Brady reference. Sorry you seem to feel so defensive about crediting being a lost cause while also doing it yourself.
It is sad however that your attack on crediting requires the “credit every little piece of everything” argument. It is a very shallow defense. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21263 Posts
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Then where do you stop?
You can't be a little bit pregnant. Either you credit or don't and if you do then it has to be all the way out someone will be upset you didn't do enough. I am no more defensive than you are upset.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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Is this about writing up an item into our literature or how we present an item in public paid show context? Does anyone really stop a card trick to discuss the politics of using the Stuart Gordon Stud Turnover or how we name our card passes?
Is exposure more of a problem for the magic shop market or for working professional entertainers? "I'd like to thank my tailor for this reliable topit and my assistant's twin sister for making this next illusion look even more impossible. So without any further delay let's here it for the glassworks who made this Pepper's Ghost possible..."
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5930 Posts
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On Jul 1, 2021, Dannydoyle wrote: That is up to the performer and possibly the performance. You are still, sadly, trying to use “all or nothing“ as your argument position. But obviously that is just so you can have an argument, since you already admitted you have used crediting in your own work. Simply put, if one’s argument is crediting can only be used if it includes every detail of the whole performance, then one is exhibiting a lack of understanding of theater. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21263 Posts
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Yes I must lack that understanding completely.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts
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Well, Tom, can you offer any samples (links) of how giving credit could be done effectively? I'd be open to accepting it if it fits into the presentation.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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KungFuMagic Regular user 167 Posts
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Movies and theaters make effective use of passive reference. The end credits are there for those interested, and make clear that lots and lots of people were involved ... and theatres use the programs. It is my intent to transition to using my print assets to give a nod to the "significant" contributors to the performance materials ... those who would customarily be credited in such an instance. micro detail is insipid ... but those whose material I used as foundational seems proper enough. "Special Thanks to the following for their contribution to my craft and performance: ......" Doesn't have tpbe in 36pt bold, double-underlined font, but it seems a good-faith effort to acknowledge the folks whose material I used.
It can be said that having actually purchased the trick, book, video, or other produced materials, the performer has legally obtained the license and rights to perform the material as he/she sees fit, and no crediting need be done. That is a discussion for another thread, though.
Nick Sasso
part-time Samurai conjurer |
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5930 Posts
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On Jul 1, 2021, George Ledo wrote: Watch musicians. They have no problem saying when a song is written by another artist whose work they enjoy. As far as spoon feeding you, not gonna happen. |
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5930 Posts
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On Jul 1, 2021, KungFuMagic wrote: And it can be shown through precedent in music and theater that owning the “how” does not grant rights to go out and perform it professionally. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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How about putting the background info in show programs?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21263 Posts
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On Jul 1, 2021, Tom Cutts wrote: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JtfhPrVxDdU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk7RVw3I8eg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mLbOBoa8vD8 I have been watching musicians and I have trouble finding them saying what you say they do. It seems as if this is a blanket statement which you are so ready to point out for others.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 2962 Posts
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"Paul Simon later noted that Presley’s rendition of his song was a 'touch on the dramatic side.' 'But so was the song,' he added. 'When I first heard Elvis perform ‘Bridge Over Troubled Water’ it was unbelievable. I thought to myself, ‘How the hell can I compete with that?'”
https://www.google.com/search?q=rolling+......ie=UTF-8 |
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Posted: Jun 25, 2021 03:17 pm 
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