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tommy
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I think Pops theory is mixed up in this thread:

It would be better if it was not. I mean, there is a lot of noise in it, making it difficult to see clearly.

Anyway if you just read what Pop says you should get it.

https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view......&start=0
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Mr. Mystoffelees
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What Pop says:

Sherlock Holmes was more of an inductive reasoner than a deductive one. He "invented" the crime that would fit the "evidence," rather than using a fingerprint or burnt tobacco to identify the culprit. He often assumed a fraudulent intelligence at work, and suspected "evidence" that might have been tampered with.

Magic is a similar sort of thing. But it is not just the positing of a fraudulent intelligence. We KNOW there IS a fraudulent intelligence behind the evidence, so we know it can't be trusted.

One can't use it to point to the culprit.

The only way to solve a magic trick is to invent the trick. You have to imagine a number of possible ways the trick could have been done, and then choose the one that fits all the "evidence" both true and false. Since the average person has little knowledge of the Technology of Deception, this is usually impossible.

"Wonder" is the process of imagining possibilities outside the world we know, and is just as an important source of knowledge as deductive reasoning.

The Theory of Relativity was created through imaginative "what if?" thought experiments.

Wonder involves both the real world, and the fantastic. Magic's dilemma sits at this exact apex. We give the spectator the gift of a prickly thing that hopefully will bother and annoy them every time the subject of magic comes up, and they will be compelled to rehearse the argument for the trick. They will be pushed into inductive thought--wonder--once again.

This is the joy of magic, and its goal.

As a loner growing up, I found great joy in fantasy, magic, science fiction and so on.

Magic gave me a way both to celebrate and to share this joy. "How did he do that?" "What would it be like to be able to will something or someone to disappear?"

The Trickster archetype is the one who thinks outside the box, uses his head instead of brawn and enjoys and celebrates cleverness for its own sake. He is the embodiment of creative thought and individualism.

To me, Magic is a celebration of the Trickster, and somehow an embodiment. I find it full of joy and wonder both to watch and to do.
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
Pop Haydn
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Quote:
On Jan 3, 2021, Mr. Mystoffelees wrote:
What Pop says:

Sherlock Holmes was more of an inductive reasoner than a deductive one. He "invented" the crime that would fit the "evidence," rather than using a fingerprint or burnt tobacco to identify the culprit. He often assumed a fraudulent intelligence at work, and suspected "evidence" that might have been tampered with.

Magic is a similar sort of thing. But it is not just the positing of a fraudulent intelligence. We KNOW there IS a fraudulent intelligence behind the evidence, so we know it can't be trusted.

One can't use it to point to the culprit.

The only way to solve a magic trick is to invent the trick. You have to imagine a number of possible ways the trick could have been done, and then choose the one that fits all the "evidence" both true and false. Since the average person has little knowledge of the Technology of Deception, this is usually impossible.

"Wonder" is the process of imagining possibilities outside the world we know, and is just as an important source of knowledge as deductive reasoning.

The Theory of Relativity was created through imaginative "what if?" thought experiments.

Wonder involves both the real world, and the fantastic. Magic's dilemma sits at this exact apex. We give the spectator the gift of a prickly thing that hopefully will bother and annoy them every time the subject of magic comes up, and they will be compelled to rehearse the argument for the trick. They will be pushed into inductive thought--wonder--once again.

This is the joy of magic, and its goal.

As a loner growing up, I found great joy in fantasy, magic, science fiction and so on.

Magic gave me a way both to celebrate and to share this joy. "How did he do that?" "What would it be like to be able to will something or someone to disappear?"

The Trickster archetype is the one who thinks outside the box, uses his head instead of brawn and enjoys and celebrates cleverness for its own sake. He is the embodiment of creative thought and individualism.

To me, Magic is a celebration of the Trickster, and somehow an embodiment. I find it full of joy and wonder both to watch and to do.


A very good summary of what I have been saying. I think you have it exactly right.
Pop Haydn
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The Trickster Character and the Magical Character are different, and are both always present to some degree.

Brad Burt
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Magic is ALL tricks unless one takes the position that what is being done is REALLY magic. That is, that what is being done is essentially impossible unless one has POWER to DO the impossible. This was the "old style" of the old masters many of whom wished folks to "buy into" the delusion that Real Magic was being done.

Move forward and except for those doing PSYCHIC demos and offering them AS REAL, what you have are really, REALLY great tricks. Puzzles offered in a manner that totally befuddles the minds of the viewers. Look at it this way: Movies in a sense used to offer "magic" of a kind. The technology in many cases was so amazing that what was on the screen seemed like a kind of "magic". The "magic" of the movies was a common phrase. Then they started to show us the HOW of the technology and the "magic" just vanished. Movies in a way became like a painting whose technique was explained to you, etc. Movies are very cool, but I no longer find them magical.

Magic as it's performed now and at it's apex has unlike movies retained it's sense of "magic". It may in fact be the only craft that still does. Even the exposure of magic technique does little to diffuse the amazement when a great routine is performed. Why is that? Because, unlike the movies magicians just keep looking for more and different and better ways to produce the effects that they perform. I can't tell you folks how many times the phrase after a show came up, "Hey, I thought I knew how those Chinese Rings worked, but I guess I didn't." Or, some variant.

What magic offers at it's best is amazement. To be honest I have always found being AMAZED to be more entertaining structurally than any other thing that can be offered by the magic performer. I can appreciate the jokes, patter, etc. surrounding an effect, but the number of times that the "cover" took away enjoyment of the "effect" is too numerous to add up. The one, two, three ... bang of the first time I experienced Coin Thru the Rubber Dental Dam trick or the first time I say Chop Cup has never been equaled by almost anything else I have seen. I've seen routines as good, but not much better.

Take away the strength of the amazement and you might as well just learn to tell some really good jokes.
Brad Burt
tommy
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With patter, the magician asserts something so incredible that the audience knows cannot possibly true and them the magician proves the assertion true with a magic experiment.

In the above, is the patter just something that surrounds the magic, like a side joke or a paint job?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
tommy
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A joke has a set-up line and a punch-line. Likewise, in our magic, we have a set-up line and a punch-line, which we call the patter and the experiment. While it might be amazing to give them the punchline without the set-up line, we will not be amused. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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