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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » New to Mentalism, any recommendations? (2 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Mindpro
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The problem with all this just directing someone to resources is you are directing them to fish, rather than the much more beneficial and more, encompassing teaching them how to fish.
Jporter123
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Mind Pro could you elaborate on that? I understand where your coming from but as we can not physically teach most everyone here, isn’t directing someone to resources the best choice? Not trying to start anything I’m just curious how you would go about “directing” somebody.
johnhsawyer
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Https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view......715873#1

That is why I pointed to the post from David linked above. I believe it is a teaching post and certainly couldn’t have stated or restated any better. To further my studies, I am making my way through posts here starting back in 2002.

-jhs
Mr. Woolery
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John, thank you for linking to David’s advice. He doesn’t post half as often as I wish he did and his thoughts tend to be both meaningful and generous. I recall reading that post when he first put it up. It was well worth reading again.

Patrick
Mr. Woolery
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For the original poster: my recommendation is to think about what you want people to perceive about your performance. This will tie into what your intended venue might be, of course.

Annemann is often credited with a tongue-in-cheek explanation of how to look like a real mind reader. Just find someone who can really read minds and make your material look like what that person does. This seems flippant on the surface, but it can lead to some important questions.

1. What are your abilities you plan to display?
2. If you really had those abilities, what would you do with them?
3. Is doing what you claim to do likely to have people want you to be a guru?
4. If people really believe in your abilities, will you be okay with that?
5. What is the line you won’t cross?
6. Why should anyone care what you can do?

Now, if you want to claim you can bend metal with your mind, how is that going to matter to your audience? My mother once told me about a man she had seen giving a motivational talk about the power of mind over body and how you can learn to control your perception of pain. He demonstrated this by putting a long needle into the skin of his arm. It didn’t even bleed! He could control his body that well, it seems. A talk of over an hour, a brief demonstration of what this control can do, and she remembered it for 35 years.

What’s your message? Why does it matter?

Patrick
Stunninger
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There’s something wonderfully inspiring about seeing, deeply absorbing and studying great performances of mentalism. I started my studies reading Corinda and Annemann. But my enthusiasm dramatically increased when I invested in Banachek’s PSI Series videos and Osterlind’s Easy to Master Mental Miracles and saw performances by these super pros.

If I were starting over again, I’d still invest in those resources and also some of the wonderful mentalism lectures now available on Penguin, including Ross Johnson, Banachek, Jan Forester, Lior Manor and Christopher Carter.
Mindpro
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Quote:
On Aug 7, 2020, Jporter123 wrote:
Mind Pro could you elaborate on that? I understand where your coming from but as we can not physically teach most everyone here, isn’t directing someone to resources the best choice? Not trying to start anything I’m just curious how you would go about “directing” somebody.



No problem. I just meant this forum has been known more recently for directing newies to effects or beginning-level type effects. We see this so often. However, if you are really trying to help someone learn mentalism, it should begin with a proper foundational understanding to best help them. This will help them to be able to answer many of their own questions or at least know what questions to ask for forward evolvement in the learning process.

David has done just this in another post. We often see people take the conversation to things way beyond a newbies level which will actually work against their learning and education. Foundation, principles, and differences on all levels between mentalism and magic are what will be most helpful is the understanding between actual mentalism, mental magic, and what magician's often refer to as mentalism.

Effects only should come in when these things are done. Sequential learning is most important, yet as we see over and over again, many here skip this whole foundational level being in such a hurry to get only to the effects (which is so common with magicians) leading to many simply offering resources of effects.

So instead of directing one to effects sources or magic's easy to learn mentalism, lead him to more productive and beneficial resources.

I disagree that we can't help people physically learn. I also think there is a wealth of this type of information here in The Magic Café if you are willing to wade through all of the effect posts and fad topics. As johnhsawyer said in just a few posts above what he is doing will prove helpful on many levels - it will show him some truths about mentalism, mental magic, recent understanding of evolvement in mentalism here, who he will align with and find to be true teachers and helpful, who are real performers and who are theorists and armchair mentalists, who are readers, who perform and who don't, and who are the bandwagon jumpers, the Euro-kiddies that have brought mentalism down to what it is now in many circles, the differences in types and styles of mentalism, real mentalism of the NLP/body language approaches, the best learning resources for him, an understanding of other's journeys and the obstacles they faced and overcame, and so much more. Also to understand what is discussed here and what is dropped to the downstairs mentalism forum. It can help shape his learning and education while seeing a much greater picture on so many levels.
weirdwizardx
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If I were you, I would take a simple effect from the sources mentioned above (anyone that you like) and give it a believable presentation, then practice and after that rehearse.
What I think every mentalist should achieve is to be able to present the effect as a true demonstration of some phenomena and the best way (I think) to do that is by creating the appropiate context using the presentation of the effect. I hope you understand my bad english.

Best wishes and I hope you continue learning...
Chris K
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Quote:
On Aug 7, 2020, Mindpro wrote:
The problem with all this just directing someone to resources is you are directing them to fish, rather than the much more beneficial and more, encompassing teaching them how to fish.


Spaghetti monster darn it! I have to agree with Mindpro yet again. If I weren't so self-centered I may actually assume I'm maturing and seeing the wisdom on his ways. Smile

The biggest problem with his statement (which I agree 100% with in principle) is that it's hard to establish what the baseline is for anybody asking these sorts of questions. The OP here has been a member of the Café for over 2 years. Do I assume he has 2 years experience, more, less? Does one treat him the same as a coworker who says they are really interested in learning magic/mentalism and start at the literal beginning?

A lot of that should fall on the OP but it gets difficult since they often don't know what information will be helpful for us to know in order to help them.

In terms of the fishing analogy, if somebody comes up to me and says something like "I'm really interested in fishing for big mouth bass", I'd more often direct them to locations in the state that have large big mouth bass populations. What I wouldn't do is give them references to books on how to fish.

That is because there is a specificity in the question which is beyond just "I want to catch some fish, can you help me?"

Ok, I agreed with Mindpro while simultaneously disagreeing with him. I feel better now. Smile

EDIT: To be fair, I'd probably ask more probing questions in the fishing example above but that is a conversation not an online forum
Mindpro
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Don't fight it, eventually, most will come around and agree with me and see the light at some point, lol. When people look beyond the misconceptions others have created, oh, and of course stop thinking like magicians, you will notice a new light on the horizon.

However, I do disagree with your big mouth bass analogy. No, I wouldn't direct them to locations in the state that have a large mouth bass population either (that would come later in time in the proper sequential order of the learning process), but rather teach them the proper way to approach and learn the art/sport of bass fishing itself, starting with the beginning basics - the uniqueness of bass fishing, the differences from other types of fishing, special knowledge and equipment needed to set them up for the greatest success with bass fishing, then specific nuances, then watch/help them try to apply their initial efforts, correcting their technique, knowing when to have a beer and when they'll need two hands, and so on....then at the proper point, get to those specific locations.

Stop trying to hang on to this forum's favorite sport of trying to diss and find fault and oppose my posts. I get it may be hard to let go but follow the light, give it up and let go, and you too will see the light completely and a whole new world of possibilities.
Dylenium
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I get it may be hard to let go but follow the light, give it up and let go, and you too will see the light completely and a whole new world of possibilities.


Why does it sound like Mindpro is trying to convince us to join a cult? And more importantly: Where do I sign up?
Chris K
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Quote:
On Aug 11, 2020, Mindpro wrote:
...However, I do disagree with your big mouth bass analogy. No, I wouldn't direct them to locations in the state that have a large mouth bass population either (that would come later in time in the proper sequential order of the learning process), but rather teach them the proper way to approach and learn the art/sport of bass fishing itself, starting with the beginning basics - the uniqueness of bass fishing, the differences from other types of fishing...


All is right with the world again, I'm in complete disagreement with Mindpro about something! Smile

If I were in a bait shop and somebody asked me where to fish for bass, I would never, in a million years, take the approach you say you would take. If I were asking somebody and they started to answer about the proper way to approach and learn the sport, I'd walk away. If I were a customer and the equivalent conversation started with two other people, I would look at both the cashier AND the person asking about where to fish for bass and shake my head in pity.

By the way, it's apparent that you never want to ask Mindpro for directions. Smile

He would start off explaining the chemistry behind combustion engines, then he would engage in a discussion over hand placement on the steering wheel, when to use/not use turn signals. If you're lucky, he might skip over the explanation of driving in the US is on the right but it's on the left in most former British colonies.

After a couple weeks of hard core driver's education, he might tell you that your friend's house is down the street, take the first left.
Mindpro
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Quote:
On Aug 12, 2020, Dylenium wrote:
Quote:
I get it may be hard to let go but follow the light, give it up and let go, and you too will see the light completely and a whole new world of possibilities.


Why does it sound like Mindpro is trying to convince us to join a cult? And more importantly: Where do I sign up?


LOl! Yes, when you are performing good mentalism people can and will approach you and mention they may believe you are part of a cult.
Mindpro
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Chris K - glad you are back to your comfort zone, lol. Keep going with that approach and at some point you'll be asking me or someone for fish.
ˆIt's a pleasure to disagree with you!
Chris K
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Just to be clear, since it isn't the case a vast majority of the time, much of my post was meant in a joking way, especially the end.

Being serious for a moment:
I DO think that one of the most arrogant, unhelpful, and disrespectful things a person can do is ignore someone's question and instead answer the question you think they should have asked. I had hoped the fish example would show just how boorish that approach is but in a funny sort of way. Mindpro was all in though. He's like, nope, not going to give somebody directions until I lecture them on (and, again, a literal quote): "the proper way to approach and learn the art/sport of bass fishing itself" and etc.

Ok, back to being a bit more flippant:

Mindpro, buddy, you really don't have to worry about me asking you about fish. I don't know you personally so *maybe* you've caught more fish than just my son (not even counting me) over the last 18 months but at least 99% of the population of the US hasn't. Maybe 95%, to be fair. I am NEVER going to need to ask you for some fish. I also live near San Francisco so even if I lost both my arms, fresh fish is always 30 minutes away.

And thank the spaghetti monster, I won't have to ask Mindpro for directions:

Mindpro: Now you see here, this is the gas pedal
Me: Yes, I drove here. I also drove for a previous job, I just want to know the best exit to Fisherman's Wharf.
Mindpro: Right, so next to the gas is the brake. The way this works is that in a hydraulic system...
Me: Oh gawd no, stop, please...
Mindpro: I lost my spot, let me start over. Hyrdrogen, which was formed as part of the Big Bang combines with other hydrogen to make elements. These elements can combine... Oh wait, I skipped over the expansion of space, let me start over...

EDIT: There are several valid retorts to my fish example but doubling down isn't one Smile
Chris K
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Quote:
On Aug 12, 2020, Mindpro wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 12, 2020, Dylenium wrote:
Quote:
I get it may be hard to let go but follow the light, give it up and let go, and you too will see the light completely and a whole new world of possibilities.


Why does it sound like Mindpro is trying to convince us to join a cult? And more importantly: Where do I sign up?


LOl! Yes, when you are performing good mentalism people can and will approach you and mention they may believe you are part of a cult.


And now I am back to agreeing with Mindpro, as I have had experienced that exact type of reaction (I've also posted previously about being callend El Diablo, etc.).

The problem is, to join Mindpro's cult, you'll have to earn a degree in the history of cults. And from him specifically, as he doesn't accept any other education as valid, he has to be the one to teach you how to fish remember! Smile
Mindpro
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Lesson For The Day: In order to fish well one must first become a master-baitor!
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