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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » How to recover if you miss the DL in Chicago Opener? (2 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Frank Yuen
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Bob, I'll agree with everyone else and say that you really shouldn't miss doubles where you can get a get ready. However, I'll also answer your question.

In the case where you do a single instead of a double, I think your only option would be to segue into a different trick. Chicago Opener is ruined because you've already shown the second revelation. You currently have the selection on the top of the deck so perhaps you say that you forgot a second card was supposed to be selected as well. Have the second selection controlled to the bottom of the deck (maybe using a cull) and use the stranger card to find both cards via the Prophecy move.

In the case where you turn over a triple, you act like you planned it and adjust your patter to say something like, "and that one card is the ____ of _____. But if I snap my fingers, it turns into your card ..." now turn over a double and continue the trick.
Bob G
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Thanks, Frank. I appreciate these ideas. So, in the case of a triple, I assume you'd turn the triple back face down before you do the double?


I've been really surprised that people are so adamant that, as you say, "you really shouldn't miss doubles where you can get a get ready." It's as if people are saying, "Once you really know the DL, you'll never make a mistake again." That can't be true -- we humans aren't constructed that way. We're always making mistakes. Experienced actors who have been performing in the same play for many months forget a line once in a while, or say it wrong, or miss a cue. How could it be otherwise? I'll bet even magicfish occasionally pinky-counts a triple by mistake if he's tired -- no more than once a year, I expect in a busy schedule of performances. Smile


Now of course I don't have my DL up to performance level, but I've made all kinds of mistakes, even in the very simple get-ready that landmark suggested. It doesn't happen often anymore, but occasionally when practicing pushing over just one card, I accidentally push over two. Wish I could do that on purpose!


So my question was legitimate, I believe, and I'm glad to have your and Ed's suggestions.


In the end, though, I agree with the people who said this isn't a big deal for a relative beginner who aspires only to perform for family and friends.


Finally, to Ed: I appreciate your idea to use a false shuffle. On the other hand, I could have done without "bass ackwards," thank you very much -- unless, of course, you were referring to an arcane method of fishing.


Bob
magicfish
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Bob. Ed is trying to help. The DL/Turnover is one of the most difficult sleights in card magic. It takes time to master. If it hasn't been mastered, effects that hinge on it should not be performed. It may seem as though we arent being helpful, but we are. Master the double first, then perform the effect.
I hope I don't sound condescending.
Respectfully,
Fish.
P.s. Perhaps you could ask Pop Hayden what he does when he misses the Double during his renowned performances of this effect.
But my suspicion is, he doesn't miss it.
See what I'm sayin?
ekgdoc
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Quote:
On Jul 30, 2020, Bob G wrote:
I anticipate occasionally catching one or three cards instead of two, or perhaps the double visibly splits, and I'm wondering what to do about those eventualities.


Forget about Chicago Opener. Is there ANY card trick that allows one to mess up the DL in the 3 ways described above and always end well?

David M.
Bob G
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I agree with you, fish, and no, you don't sound condescending. I don't want to perform a trick until I've mastered it. I think the method landmark describes is probably the best way to go at this stage in my development.


I don't know whaat Pop Hadyen does if he misses the DL in his Chicago Surprise. But I'll bet it happens -- but only very rarely. And from what I've seen of his work, it's a good bet that he has an out prepared. Maybe I'll write and ask him -- he's always been friendly and helpful to me. To give another analogy: a friend told me the following joke: Vladimir Horowitz missed so many notes that he could have played a whole 'nother concerto with those notes. Even the masters make mistakes.


By the way: I love the Magic Café's zany images, in case you couldn't tell. Have another donut:
:donut1:



I know that Ed was trying to help; it was just that one bit of language that bothered me. My guess is he was just joking around, but I was beginning to feel like people were ganging up on me. But I admit to being the sensitive type, so maybe I overinterpreted. I appreciate your returning to the thread to explain your thinking.


To ekgdoc: I'd be interested to hear some answers to your question. I can't tell whether you're trying to broaden the scope of the conversation, which would be fine by me, or whether your question is rhetorical, meant to suggest that it's not even worth trying to find outs for DL's.


And thanks for being a cardiologist, if you are; thank goodness for doctors.

Bob
ekgdoc
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On Jul 31, 2020, Bob G wrote:
To ekgdoc: I'd be interested to hear some answers to your question. I can't tell whether you're trying to broaden the scope of the conversation, which would be fine by me, or whether your question is rhetorical, meant to suggest that it's not even worth trying to find outs for DL's.


I avoided tricks that used a DL for years because my DL was not reliable. Having a DL trick with outs would have been nice. I can now do a DL very reliably. But I cannot do a strike DL, a DL using a pinky count, and many others. I struggled with the DL, but had a breakthrough after reading the instructions given in The Magic Book by Harry Lorayne. Sometimes it is just practice, but sometimes you keep searching until you find what works for you.

David M.
Bobby Forbes
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Bob. The easiest most sure fire can't miss way to get a break under 2 cards has been discussed on this thread. Literally the easiest possible way. And reaching into a break makes it impossible to pick up more than 2 cards. You can absolutely do this 100 percent of the time without missing. You really should try practicing the most basic form of the DL and DL get ready before moving on to strike doubles and pinky counts. Especially true for a beginner wanting to get out there and perform tricks using the double lift. Don't make it complicated. Keep it simple my man. Keep practicing the other versions you enjoy practicing but have a sure fire method as well. We all have reliable moves etc that we always do, but it's fun to practice other riskier variations.
Bobby Forbes
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One more thing Bob. Search Aaron Fisher on YouTube. He goes over many basic double lifts and a few nice get ready's. Perfect for beginners. He's an accomplished magician who has done his homework. He's a great teacher as well.
Francois Lagrange
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Reading between the lines, I think that Bob's problem is that he can't 100% obtain a break under 2 cards during the spreading and closing of the deck? At times he'll catch 3 or more. Am I right? Though the technique is simple for most of us, Bob seems to be struggling with it.

In that case, the Robert-Houdin handling will help. But, why not use a short odd-backed card, or a short corner one? DLs with a short card are as fire-proof as they come.

On the other thand, you could choreograph the effect this way: When the odd-backed card appears, treat is as an anomaly and leave it on the table, face down, with a comment like "Hoops, must be from another deck.." and take the opportunity to get a break under the selection. Only later mention again the tabled card. Pick it up and leave it on top of deck and call attention to some minute detail of its back and finally perform the DL. It needs some work, but I think the idea is viable.
Protect me from my friends, I'll take care of my enemies.
Bob G
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Thanks for all the ideas and encouragement, everybody. After giving people's comments some thought, I've decided that my next step for Chicago Opener should be to practice the method of removing the odd card from the deck and then replacing it with an appropriate excuse (Robert-Houdin method). That way I can at least do CO in the near future, and, as Bobby said, I can still be practicing other DL's for future tricks. (By the way, Bobby, I'm with you on Fisher, and have watched many of his youtube videos. He goes into little details that most people don't teach, but which make all the difference.)


Francois, you're right, I do have trouble getting a break under 2 cards while closing a spread -- frustrating because everyone else seems to find it so easy! Smile But a friend on the Café has been giving me tips, and it's slowly getting better. I *could* use a short card or something of the sort, but I find it more rewarding (if frustrating at times) to learn pure sleight of hand.


Okay, gotta get back to my deck. Have a good weekend, folks.


Bob
Nikodemus
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Hi Bob,
I can understand your frustration! But I can also understand people saying you should not get into that situation in the first place.

Here are my thoughts. I hope they are helpful.

1. I think you are looking for some kind of "insurance policy". Ideally you will never need it but it's nice to know it's there!
Forget Doubles for a moment. Imagine you were genuinely trying to turn over the top card, but you got two by mistake. What would most people do? They would just say something like, "Whoops - I seem to have two here" and PUT ONE BACK. You can do exactly the same with a triple, when you were going for a double. Just slide the top one off and put it on top of the deck. You just need to practice doing it in a smooth natural way. And don't make too big a deal of it. In fact it will probably make your double more convincing!
It is not natural to put all the cards back on top, and then pick up the top one again - so don't do that. (Also you would need to get another break etc etc - nightmare!)
Also I don't see any reason to false shuffle and start again.

2. Everyone here is trying to help you when they say you should not put yourself in this situation in the first place.
Imagine asking a driving instructor "what should I do when overtaking on a blind corner, and a car is coming the other way?" The correct answer is you should NEVER overtake on a blind corner!
So you need to figure out what you need to do to get that break under exactly the top two cards - confidently & consistently. It should not feel like a gamble.
My first suggestion is take your time. You are probably a bit anxious and rushing things.
To give yourself time, think about structuring the whole presentation to give yourself the time you need. I only know a few sleights - but I am pretty good at managing spectator attention. This is what puts you in control.

3. It should not take you 5 years to learn a basic double lift. Also a Double LIFT is much easier than a Double TURNOVER. (A distinction that is often blurred). Learn a simple easy technique to start with, then you can work on something more advanced.


Now for some specific advice on the DL (based on my own newbie efforts!!!)
Forget strike double etc - way too advanced.
Forget trying to get a break under two cards with just one hand - too knacky & unreliable (for me, anyway!)

Can you get a single break one-handed? This is not too difficult. Use your thumb to push off the top card slightly. The tips of your fingers ensure it is only one. Pull it back with the thumb, keeping your pinky under the edge. Actually I find it a bit tricky with my pinky sometimes - so I use any of my fingers initially to control the card, then swap the break to my pinky. All of this only takes about 1 second. While you do this, you are talking to the spectator, looking them in the eye etc. Anything to keep the heat off your left hand. While you are doing this there is one card in your right hand, so maybe you gesture with that. Casually removing the card, and putting it back on top just looks like you are fidgeting a bit.

The other option is closing the spread. Which I think is easier. Just do whatever you need to do. You could even thumb off the top TWO cards into your right hand as you talk and gesture. Then put them back on the deck with a nice easy break underneath.

Look at what Pop Haydn does here (at 1.00) -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7zDyQqVUKc
He spreads the cards, cuts them, and closes them. For me the cut makes it a bit awkward to get the break. So I would either re-spread after the cut. Or just put the top cards down on the table rather than cutting them to the back of the deck.


Next - what type of Double "Lift" are you doing once you get the break?
The easiest technique by far is just to LIFT off the double in your right hand, with thumb at one end & fingers at the other. Show it, then put it back on the deck. This is perfectly adequate for a beginner.

Also here is a simple beginner version of a Double Turnover -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gjd4EDm3EWU
When I do it, I leave the card slightly in-jogged towards me when I put it face-up on the deck. Then you don't need to worry about keeping a break.
Also when I flip it to face-down, I like to do it endways rather than sideways.

You should be able to get confident with these techniques in days/weeks rather than months/years.
Nikodemus
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I have read on the forum and elsewhere that Eugene avoided using double lift/turnover. But he does twice in this video (posted in 2007) -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3hkFRTj-2o

In both cases, he gets the break while attention is directed elsewhere.
And this is clearly no accident - it is all meticulously choreographed despite looking entirely spontaneous.
Bob G
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Hi Nikodeums,


Thanks for all your thoughts. I'll try to be brief (for me) in my answers. My numbers correspond to yours in your last post but one.


1. Insurance policy -- nice way to put it.


2. I like your analogy. You clearly have a flair for analogies; I saw another nice one of yours in another thread. Let me extend your analogy. Road accidents *do* happen. That's why we have a whole infrastructure involving police, fire fighters, Hazmat Crews, EMT's, and hospitals -- not to mention insurance companies -- to help people recover (we hope).


3. About the Robert-Houdin technique: I've gotten pretty good at getting a left-handed break under one card. So imagine that I've taken off the top card with my right hand, and gestured with it for misdirection while I get a left-hand break under the next-to-top card. My problem comes about when I try to push the top card back flush with the second-from-top one. I tried the technique a few times last night after rereading this thread, and the problem was that I ended up with *two* breaks: one between top and next-to-top, another between next-to-top and rest of deck. Mind you, I haven't practiced much, so maybe I could fix the problem in a reasonable amount of time.


By the way, apparently I'm unusual in this way, but I'm still working on getting a break while closing a spread. I'm getting better at it.



I appreciate all the videos you linked me to. Burger is great. Of course, he was a master. I always write a script for tricks I'm going to perform, and try to build in misdirection and other choreography. I don't expect to live long enough to dance at Burger's level, but it's beautiful, and fun, to watch him work.


I need to give some thought to doing a double *lift*. I always do a turnover. The problem, as Burger himself has noted, is that in Chicago Opener there's a lot of heat on the DL or DT while it's being performed. Because of that I'd like to get a break *before* things get hot -- so closing the spread will be ideal if I can master it. (Or the Robert-Houdin. )


About your link to a beginner's DT: I love Asad of 52kards. Such a good teacher. So far I've avoided turning cards end for end as you do, or turning them the way Asad does, because they look unnatural to me. Also, in the video you pointed out, Asad suggests using the right hand to riffle up the back of the cards and catch two. I just don't know how to make that look natural, though I know it can be done. And I don't find it easy.


The pinky count actually came in quite quickly for me -- go figure! But it's still a bit slow: I pop up the top card and then have to wait for the second card to come up.


Thanks again for all your thoughts.

Bob
Bob G
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Just a clarification: I think people are assuming that I can't do a double turnover from the top of the deck. In fact, I can do two, though they need more practice. I do a strike double turnover, and a pinky count followed by a DT.


Where I have trouble is in (1) getting a break under two cards while closing a spread, and (2) the Robert-Houdin technique. That's why I wanted to focus on Chicago Opener.


Also: It's possible (though I think unlikely) that masters like Pop Haydn/Eugene Burger can/could do a flawless DT every time they try/tried one. But most of us aren't masters. I doubt that my DT's will ever be 100% consistent. And that's why I asked about outs.
magicfish
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Most of us arent masters, but if you are performing Chicago Surprise for layman, it must be mastered. Mastery of the trick includes mastery of the methods by which it is achieved. If the DL isn't mastered, then effects which rely on it must not be performed.
magicfish
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It should be noted that Eugene Burger eliminated the DL/DT from his repertoire entirely.
Bob G
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Magicfish, in my mind, at least, there's a difference between mastery of a technique and being a master in a field. Masters make mistakes from time to time. If you've ever studied chess, you'll know that even the greatest players in the world make mistakes sometimes, which often leads to their losing the game. No "outs" for them!
magicfish
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"there's a difference between mastery of a technique and being a master in a field."

Precisely what I stated above.

I may not be a master magician, but I do not perform any effect for a layman unless I have it mastered.
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