|
|
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3 [Next] | ||||||||||
Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Back to David's original question - how do you read minds? How many mentalists today actually purport to read minds, not execute tricks? Seems many prefer not to actually read minds but more so focus on more common things such as reading body language, readings, or other anyone-can-learn-to-do-this-type abilities. Is this really mentalism? No psi, no unique or special abilities, no claimed uncommon existence that audiences are willing to pay for to experience, no performer specialty.
David said, "Somewhere along the way, mentalism stopped being mentalism and morphed into a magic show with a mentalism theme." He also said "even a single mentalism effect -- is like a play." This is what I too am speaking of here. Mentalism must be theatrical like a play, with a purpose, process, and experience for the audience, including all the elements of theater including connection, rapport, drama, comedy, suspense, and more. Part of this is pre-establishing some positioning before the performance even starts. It is this area that mentalism is much more like hypnosis than it is magic. It's important to understand that audiences rarely want what the performer does, unless a vaery specific, usually small niche audience/event. |
|||||||||
Dylenium New user 52 Posts |
I think one goal should be to make mentalism believable. Something that could be possible but is so incredible that it almost cant be. In that sense, I feel like most people like it more when no supernatural abilities are claimed. If you do, you automatically loose the "this could be possible" aspect. Nowadays the majority of the people just don't believe that anyone can actually read minds.
|
|||||||||
Philemon Vanderbeck Inner circle Seattle, WA 4694 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 5, 2020, Dylenium wrote: Except for the 45% of Americans who believe in ghosts and demons. https://today.yougov.com/topics/lifestyl......ons-poll
Professor Philemon Vanderbeck
That Creepy Magician "I use my sixth sense to create the illusion of possessing the other five." |
|||||||||
Dylenium New user 52 Posts |
Ok, fair. Probably you can get away with claiming supernatural abbilities. But I think it also depends where you live, If you live in a very religious country it should work better then in a country with a high percantage of atheists.
|
|||||||||
Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 5, 2020, Dylenium wrote: I agree or what is the point? When you breakdown what mentalism is on all levels this is quite apparent. Who wants to see a fake mentalist? |
|||||||||
Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 5, 2020, Mindpro wrote: Skeptics. |
|||||||||
Jed Maxwell Regular user 133 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 5, 2020, Dylenium wrote: What is believable mentalism? In my experience, the mentalism that has been the most believable to the participant/audience has been psychic charlatanism. Their audience wants to believe. I watch(ed) a clairvoyant medium that comes to my local area a couple times a year. His cold, warm and hot reading is better than anything a magician has put to paper. Mentalists' I have seen all looked like they are just doing tricks. How far are you willing to play it for real to be believable? I do not understand the fear of playing it for real. If you do it for free, you are giving them a free experience. They cannot justifiably complain when you remind them of that. If you are charging for it in an entertainment setting, it's entertainment. They cannot justifiably complain when you remind them of that. If you are charging for it in a private reading setting, you have to say/display that it is for entertainment purposes only, pursuant to the laws of your land. They cannot justifiably complain when you remind them of that. Skeptics are still paying customers. Just remind them it is all for entertainment purposes only. The other audience members will be open to the possibility you are real or will believe it feverishly. They want to believe. I'd love to see more discussion on "playing it for real" a.k.a psychic charlatanism. |
|||||||||
Dylenium New user 52 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 6, 2020, Jed Maxwell wrote: that's a really good question. As I already stated, my original statement, that you cant be believable if you claim psychic powers was definetly wrong. But I still think you have a way harder time to be believable if you claim supernatural powers. You just have to deal with a lot more skeptics, hecklers and debunkers. I never saw anyone trying to prove derren brown as a fake (That doesn't mean that nobody did it, it just didn't get that much attention) But there were whole articles and documentaries about how Uri Geller was a fake. Also I guess its way harder to be believable if you don't at least partially believe in it yourself. Of course there are exceptions. Another interesting thing you mentioned is, how far are you ready to go to seem believable. I would say that could be a whole new thread on where it starts to get morally unacceptable. |
|||||||||
Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 6, 2020, Jed Maxwell wrote: I think this is a great topic for its own thread as not to derail or hijack David's. I think you may have a bit of a limitred belief of what real mentalism is or could be. |
|||||||||
funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Back in 1957, Arnold Furst taught me the concept of "Probable impossibilities."
Everyone has a "screen of logic" that can be stretched and molded like a rubber sheet, but there is danger it will break or tear if overused or pushed beyond reasonable limits. He also addressed a person's "personal zone" and "ethical bubble" that could also be exceed if one was not careful. He could bend and stretch far beyond what you or might attempt, but the lesson remains - and, the most important one -- "Your ability to create illusions of the impossible is grounded in presence and trust. Make sure those are not to stretched too far."
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
|||||||||
Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 6, 2020, Jed Maxwell wrote: This too is something worth getting into as I think it is greatly a magician's fear. |
|||||||||
funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
A thought on "believing" as related to mental abilities. That term is form "as life" meaning that you are accepting someone else's view as if it was yours.
It falls under "degrees of certainty" in mental processing. Many factors can increase one's certainty about an idea or claim. When it is validated by personal experience or multiple supporting documents/testimony it can become "certitude" and knowledge. It can also be pretend to be knowledge in the form of "conviction" in which it is treated to be "known" even in the face of contradictory evidence. So, when considering an observer's perspective of say "telepathy" you must guess/assume whether their view is Certainty (believing), Certitude (knowing) or Conviction (irrational acceptance) opinion - It is too simple to just say, "people are willing to believe in telepathy under certain conditions" in selecting a demonstration or personal framing of intent. I feel that every individual has some personal experience with reading another's mind or having their's read - or strong anecdotal story from trusted friend. (certitude of concept) So, my task is to have them "believe" with high certainty that the form of telepathy they are observing is aligned/consistent with their "knowing." For this to occur it is not essential that they believe I have any paranormal power, only the presence/confidence/experience to orchestrated conditions under which their view is validated. I have less strong feeling about other types of paranormal demonstrations unless I have a good understanding of the expectations of the audience. My earlier demonstrations may be to "test the waters' for later choices. If it turns out they expect conjuring I avoid mentalism all together. I personally avoid "prediction effects" because they require two different assumptions about the audience. It is easier, perhaps, for a known mentalist selling tickets. They can assume that each paying spectator "knows" of paranormal ability of some sort, believes that this performer can validate it, and is open to believing other types of paranormal ability. It does not matter if they also believe that trickery or guile is involved in some or all of the demonstrations. They seek validation. Bob Cassidy and I had several off-list discussions of this notion. He agreed on the advantage of the "well known" such as himself, but we could never agree on what a Mentalist could assume about a random audience. The best plan it avoid any actions/words that might mess up audience expectations or bias. The obvious ones are "not combining mental based with conjuring," cultural or race statements, awareness of religious or educational bias (conviction) and level of vocabulary.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
|||||||||
landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Two questions:
Why does the performer need to be performing in this place at this time with these people? Why does the character the performer plays need to be performing in this place at this time with these people?
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
|||||||||
johnhsawyer New user Florida 52 Posts |
I concur!
I recently started at page 771 here and have been slowly making my way back through the posts on since 2002. There is an amazing amount of knowledge banked in this forum over the years. -jhs |
|||||||||
David Thiel Inner circle Western Canada...where all that oil is 4005 Posts |
I think of them as "True Believers." They are the segment of your audience that utterly BELIEVE that what you are doing is real. There are LOTS of them out there. If you don't see them after every show, you're doing it wrong.
I've often thought about my first True Believer. It was shortly after I'd jumped off of the magic battleship and into the mentalism rowboat. Despite having done everything within my power to make my performance as REAL as possible, I was shocked into stuttering fragments of sentances when I looked into this woman's eyes and realized she believed. She really did. I STILL remember the waves of guilt that washed over me. It was weird...SO weird that I seriously considered going back to magic. Why? Hmmm. Let me back it up just a little to that moment. I was completely unprepared for her. It had never happened to me before. In 20 years of performing magic no one had ever assumed I was actually doing real magic. There was that unspoken agreement between me and the audience that I was presenting tricks. Puzzles. But this young woman was looking at me with massive eyes and chatting with me about my "Gift" -- and where it came from...and how I cultivated it. There was not the faintest suggestion in her words or her manner that she was skeptical. And she was not unintelligent. On the contrary. True Believers are generally very intelligent. Let me be brutally honest here. In that second I had this ugly oily thought: "She would believe ANYTHING I say." Full freaking stop. THAT'S why I spent the next two weeks seriously considering going back to comedy magic. It seemed much safer. In the end I did three things to deal with that guilt...and it has never come back. Thing One: I sat down and wrote a document: the things I would do and the things I wouldn't do. There are a number of lines I won't cross. I signed that document as a contract with myself and in all these years of performing mentalism I have kept every single promise. (I wrote about this incident in detail in "Crap I Think About.") Thing Two: I explain in every show the following: "What you are seeing me do tonight is something any of you could do with the proper training, techniques, methods, experience and a healthy dose of intuition." And every word in that statement is utterly true. Thing Three: I made a firm, committed decision to 'go for the throat' with my mentalism. Unless it violates the agreement I made with myself (see Thing One)it's fair game. I work with every ounce of creativity and experience...every iota of knowledge to produce a show that will blow people away. I have not had a single issue with guilt since then. Not one. I pull every stop, create every possible logical disconnect and employ every singe plausible manipulation to craft the very best mentalism show I can POSSIBLY do. That's what they pay me for. (And I welcome digressions in this discussion. It is, after all, a conversation, right? But PLEASE...please don't drag up that old 'you're a slimeball because you try to make it look real." Okay???) I've written this post because it occurs to me that knowing what your boundaries are -- and staying within them -- is a critical part of building the narrative necessary to deal with the kinds of questions that were posed early in this thread. In short: you need to be absolutely clear about WHO you are as a mentalist and WHAT you are about. Until you deal with these issues, it is going to be impossible to kick that magician's guilt to the curb -- which is exactly what you need to do if you are going to be convincing as a performer. Bottom line: you need to convince yourself long before you hope to convince others. I hope this is helpful. David
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.
My books are here: www.magicpendulums.com www.MidnightMagicAndMentalism.com |
|||||||||
Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Exactly. This is what I mean when I say the "foundational level" must be considered, determined and in place before every proceeding to effects, abilities, creating a show, getting bookings, etc.
I still content most do not do this so important initial foundational component, which is why many are constantly struggling or changing with every performance, new effect, and are all over the road in their beliefs, approach, effects, presentation, positioning, marketing, and on and on. The foundation is what everything is built upon, for performance and the business behind it. Without a strong, solid foundation firmly in place, everything else built upon it will be wobbly and wonky at best. This is also why first learning the principles and differences in mentalism is also so important. Without these, you'll just have a magic show doing mental magic. |
|||||||||
thatmichaelguy New user 67 Posts |
In narrative fiction there are the related, but opposed, ideas of suspense and surprise. Alfred Hitchcock famously talks about this in the context of a bomb placed under a table where two people are sat having a conversation. To paraphrase: In the first instance, the audience doesn't know about the bomb, and when it explodes, they are surprised. In the second instance, the audience knows about the bomb and its eventual detonation, so every moment of conversation is tightly wound with suspense.
The second instance is considerably more dramatic than the first. Good drama is built from periods of mounting tension and cathartic release. It's far more satisfying that way because it's a storytelling pattern that has been ingrained in us for millennia. So, a series of effects is just a series of surprises. There's no drama. There's no form. You're not tapping into that primal understanding of story that leaves audiences most satisfied. That's not to say that surprises don't have their place, but a good story is more than just surprising. I think the reference to each effect and the show itself as a play is incredibly apt. I think all performers would do well to study story structure and to apply those principals to every aspect of creating their performances. Story is how we understand the world outside of ourselves. It's how we engage with experiences we did personally have. It's the root of empathy. It's how we know what it's like to be someone who is not us. We definitely owe it to our audiences to give them a story rather than a series of surprises. |
|||||||||
David Thiel Inner circle Western Canada...where all that oil is 4005 Posts |
Great post. Thanks, Michael.
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.
My books are here: www.magicpendulums.com www.MidnightMagicAndMentalism.com |
|||||||||
landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
In the theater, the actors take a bow at the curtain call. The people who were villains a few minutes ago hold hands with their foes. A message is sent.
A very serious question: for mentalists, what's the need *of the performer* to continue the charade and forego the meaning of the curtain call?
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
|||||||||
funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 7, 2020, thatmichaelguy wrote: How about creating a story with their enthusiastic participation - a story to be told after of an experience of "more than" and "different from" mundanity and boredom, and the limits people place on themselves. Leave "magic" and "paranormal" as labels applied from their personal experience and expectations. Do they feel that and power or ability comes from me, them, other agency, mechanics, trickery? I can "close the door" on some notions, but never offset original bias or expectation. But, I can encourage them no to care to make any such judgment at all - just revel in the experience and warm-fuzzies. I can make it real for moment. Their memories si another matter. Hense the need for story. We orchestrate the conditions under which this might happen and toss in some astonishment. Attention and Retention - the most important basis for learning. yes, story is the binding element - our story, not just mine.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
|||||||||
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Have You Thought About... (70 Likes) | ||||||||||
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3 [Next] |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.07 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |