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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Food for thought » » I'll probably get my butt kicked for saying this. (35 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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weirdwizardx
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On Dec 22, 2020, Pop Haydn wrote:
Art with a message is not art. It is propaganda. Art raises questions, it doesn't give answers.
The principles of art can be used to increase the power of a message, but that is not art for it's own sake.

In the same way, magic can be used to deliver a message, but if it does, it is no longer art. Magic for it's own sake is art. Magic in service to some other goal is not.


I do not quite sure agree with you here Pop.
Do you know what art is? Not rethorical, but real question. At least I don't.
I must admit that when someone uses art and leaves a message I normally think that it is kinda worthless, as that would suit much better a non fiction book where you can theorize about whatever as long as you want.
Now, that I don't like it doesn't mean it isn't art.
I think that one shouldnt limit art, or what it can be. After all, havent revolutions, on any discipline, been a breaking of the limits?
doesn't art happens when the viewer appreciates the experience as art?

Cheers to all
Its fun posting again Smile
tommy
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The reason the propagandist embeds his message into art is that nobody questions fiction; the art carries the message to the subconscious, bypassing the rational faculties, which have been suspended to allow the fiction.

The entertainment side of our magic is fiction/art which bypasses the rational faculties that have been suspended to allow the fiction.

The entertainment speaks to the subconscious, to the heart, as opposed to the head; the irrational right hemisphere of the brain. That satisfies that half of the brain only. The other half, the rational left half of the brain, the heart, is satisfied when the magician offers the facts of the experiment. Thus, the whole brain is satisfied, hearts and minds have been won, simply by perfuming magic in the usual manner. i.e., with patter and an experiment.

If you want to put a message in our magic then put it into the entertainment side where it gets through to the heart. I am not a mentalist but it seems to me, that a mentalist understanding how this works might use it to embed a message into the patter to get it into the subconscious for the purpose of a trick. Darren Brown has probably already done this.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
tommy
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On Jan 23, 2021, funsway wrote:
"whole-brain" satisfaction! The mind boggles. Folks to day have only half the brain of earlier generations (knowledge, vocabulary, reasoning ability, etc.),
and that half is manipulated by marketers. The old saying, "I have half a mind to ..." is true.



One cannot rationally determine that folks today do not have the faculty of reason because such a statement is an obvious contradiction. If folks today, like you, lack the power of reason, then folks today, like you, can make no rational criticisms.

And, as Ayn Rand wrote, there are no contradictions in nature.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Pop Haydn
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On Jan 25, 2021, tommy wrote:
And, as Ayn Rand wrote, there are no contradictions in nature.


Ayn Rand was wrong. How about the rattlesnake with poisonous fangs on one end and a warning rattle on the other? Smile
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Why in the world would you say "like you". Did I step on your toes or something?

I did not say that people today do not have the faculty to reason, so you told a lie.

But yes, scientific studies can determine the relative brain activity in various age cohorts
as to the functions of the orbital cortex in sending message to the higher reasoning areas.

It is lower for those who rely on vicarious input form sources like TV and Internet than those who read books and newspaper.

Reasoning ability does not guarantee better decisions, however, since the validity of the input data is questionable in either case.

A study in 2019 of college students showed they had half of the critical reasoning capacity of a college graduate in 1960.

One might argue they don't need it since anything can be found on the Internet if truth is not a standard.

SAT tests dropped short answers in favor of multiple choice because of complaints over having to think and reason.

Ayn Rand wrote fiction, which may not be lies but is certainly other than truth. So, she offers opinions, just like you and me.

One could view that every DNA action is based on a contradiction as each either creates or destroys a water molecule,
and there chain is held together by a hydrogen bond where hydrogen can't bond with anything. The mysterious energy shifts
cannot be explained rationally, so scientists made up a convenient lie to explain it. But, it can't be a lie
since everyone agrees to the fiction rather than say, "I don't know." Another contradiction.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
tommy
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You said folks today and going by the date of your post and the absurdity of it you are one of them.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
weirdwizardx
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On Jan 25, 2021, tommy wrote:
The reason the propagandist embeds his message into art is that nobody questions fiction; the art carries the message to the subconscious, bypassing the rational faculties, which have been suspended to allow the fiction.

The entertainment side of our magic is fiction/art which bypasses the rational faculties that have been suspended to allow the fiction.

The entertainment speaks to the subconscious, to the heart, as opposed to the head; the irrational right hemisphere of the brain. That satisfies that half of the brain only. The other half, the rational left half of the brain, the heart, is satisfied when the magician offers the facts of the experiment. Thus, the whole brain is satisfied, hearts and minds have been won, simply by perfuming magic in the usual manner. i.e., with patter and an experiment.

If you want to put a message in our magic then put it into the entertainment side where it gets through to the heart. I am not a mentalist but it seems to me, that a mentalist understanding how this works might use it to embed a message into the patter to get it into the subconscious for the purpose of a trick. Darren Brown has probably already done this.


OK Freud.

Shall you share some sources to support this ideas?
weirdwizardx
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About nature.

I don't get the idea.

Humans are nature, why do you see nature outside of human beings?

Like we were some robots, or machines made by x guy. Which is possible, but then our surroundings are too.
tommy
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If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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A magician is a man playing the role of a magician.

The man is nature and so the man is not a lie.

The magician is created by the arm of man, and it is a lie, an artificial, fictional character.

Do you follow?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
weirdwizardx
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Then, how would you define nature?
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On Jan 25, 2021, tommy wrote:
Read my nephew’s book:

https://blackwells.co.uk/bookshop/produc......QAvD_BwE


Interesting, the dude who teached woman to smoke, Ill read it.
Now, an acclaration, maybe his methods worked, but I must say that a lot of this psychoanalytical theory is dismissed in todays science.
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The audience demands both entertainment and magic. To satisfy both the unconscious and conscious mind of the audience, the magician has to give them an equal amount of both Entertainment and Magic. The reason the audience demand both entertainment and magic is that the right hemisphere of the brain, the unconscious mind, is irrational and the left hemisphere of the brain, the conscious mind, is rational. Entertainment is what the audience wants while magic is what the audience needs. To sell an act to a client, appeal to the unconscious mind, as recommended by my nephew. Smile


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ3RzGoQC4s
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
weirdwizardx
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On Jan 26, 2021, tommy wrote:
The audience demands both entertainment and magic. To satisfy both the unconscious and conscious mind of the audience, the magician has to give them an equal amount of both Entertainment and Magic. The reason the audience demand both entertainment and magic is that the right hemisphere of the brain, the unconscious mind, is irrational and the left hemisphere of the brain, the conscious mind, is rational. Entertainment is what the audience wants while magic is what the audience needs. To sell an act to a client, appeal to the unconscious mind, as recommended by my nephew. Smile


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ3RzGoQC4s


Are you a scientist or something?

As Im very interested in psychonalysis, but I understand that it is pretty much dismissed in todays science, obviously not its contributions, but there is been, by what I know, major advancements on it.
It appears that you talk as some expert on pseudoscience, Id advise you to read more.

Warm wishes
markmagic
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I do lots of repeat dates, county fairs in Kentucky. One fair I have performed weekly at for 20 years and running. One of the committee members once told me why they kept hiring me back. He said "you are approachable and the audience sees you as one of them. You're not dressed in a tuxedo and everyone has a good time." I try to make the patter relate to my audience. I talk about my "trouble with women, divorce, and my childhood. Stories everyone can relate to. I believe the magic has to be good, but the story has to be better than good.
tommy
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I am not a scientist or something. I host gambling parties for a living and as we say in the fraternity; take my advice and do as you please.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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"Patter" normally relates to the effect that one is about to perform. Much like the set-up line of a joke that relates to the punch-line. Normally the magician, with what we call patter, first makes an incredible assertion and then he proceeds to prove that assertion true with an experiment. i.e.

"Ladies and Gentlemen. It is a fact well known to archaeologists that many very wonderful arts which were possessed by the ancients have, through the course of ages, been completely lost to modern civilization. Prominent among these superior accomplishments was the mysterious power of divining the presence of water or metals that lay hidden far under the ground. Now it may be that the assertion I am about to make will be received by you with polite but none the less absolute incredulity; but it has been my very great good fortune to discover, by the merest accident, the underlying principle of this lost art, and I have mapped out a plan of experiment and study that will in time, I trust, enable me to give once more to the world complete and scientific data for positively ascertaining the immediate whereabouts of such metals as gold, silver or copper by a process as simple as the waving of a willow wand over the prospected area."

"I do not myself as yet fully understand the exact nature of the power I have stumbled upon, but I know it to be a sort of magnetic or sympathetic attraction, and I shall illustrate to you the principle involved by experimenting with a deck of cards."

S.W.E. 1902

The above patter might have also related to the audience of the time, who might well have been gold prospectors. Back then there was a relationship between prospectors and cardsharps; they gave the miners a way to spend their money.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
weirdwizardx
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On Jan 26, 2021, tommy wrote:
I am not a scientist or something. I host gambling parties for a living and as we say in the fraternity; take my advice and do as you please.


Look, man, the only thing Im saying is that it would not make any harm if you included: by what I know...

Cheers!
weirdwizardx
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By the way, I find it rather very interesting that you have this whole theory behind your effects.
tommy
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Know thy self.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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