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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
"When faced with certain considerations we are either moved by the evidence or we are not. Decision and choice do not enter into it. Even with practice, we cannot decide, like the White Queen in Alice6, to believe six impossible things – or even six possible things – before breakfast. And it is equally impossible to decide not to believe six things before breakfast, whether the things in question are possible or not."
- Charles Pigden
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9981 Posts |
Nice quote but not sure what it has to do with Truth or False.
Do I agree with the sentiment or idea? Does it express an eternal truth" No. Is the statement entirely false? For me, no. Was/is it true for him? We don't don't know what "certain considerations" means. I think it is true that he believed it at the time written. I think there are other options than these two offered. (moved or not) "possible or not" is also not an either or choice, but even these are not a matter of Truth or False. but it is false (for me) to ever limit my decision making processes to "believed things" as those rely on someone else having done the thinking. It is true that I feel that just moving the level of certainty about believed things is not making a decision. ("Decision and choice do not enter into it") Me - at 4AM I work at knowing things rather than believing them. For challenges not-possible for my crippled self (impossible), yet possible for someone else, I make decisions about hiring help or abandoning the project. For matters considered physically impossible by others I look to the desired end result and find a different way. For items of a mental or spiritual "other than possible" in any controllable manner, I evaluate what is known to me and what believed, with options more than two. That is a continuous process not limited by breakfast or anyone else's opinion about what is possible, or what might count as evidence. Counting on my fingers that is about eleven matters about which I have made a decision before breakfast, all impossible in one way or another before I "considered" them. So that part of his opinion is false for me. It is true that having made these decisions I will now fix breakfast. Later I will ponder on whether the phrase "equally impossible" is a non-sequitur or a dilemma. On review I guess I reject the entire notion that my personal options are ever "two" as defined by someone else. It is true that trying to fix breakfast without disturbing my dogs is impossible.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Well, it is food for thought.
It seems to me; we can willingly suspend our disbelief and belief six impossible things true before breakfast if we like. Normally, however, it seems me, it is our experience and the evidence that determines what we believe or not and so it is not a matter of choice.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9981 Posts |
But can one trust the alleged evidence? That is how heuristic fallacy comes in. Any 'believed' thing is less than best evidence,
yet many people will trust a rock star over a scientist, or the loudest candidate over facts. Knowledge and certitude are the best evidence for personal choice, and experience as you note. Choosing to act on believed things from questionable sources is still a choice, I think. Life is about making choices - or avoiding it which is still a choice. We are not victims of ignorance unless we choose to be. but, we have have a different view of what a choice is. No problem. Sorry that you think my actively making decisions about critical matters others think to be impossible is a suspension of disbelief. Maybe I am a wizard after all There is a nice book on Certainty that is worth reading.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Here is the article I read:
file:///C:/Users/User/Documents/PDF/PIGCTA-2.1.pdf I think you will have to cut and paste it in the search bar.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
“Alice laughed. ‘There’s no use trying,’ she said: ‘one can’t believe impossible things.’ ‘I daresay you haven’t had much practice,’ said the Queen. ‘When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast’.
- Alice Through the Looking-Glass by Lewis Carrol 1871 In Our Magic, our audience, can’t believe impossible things asserted in the patter, except by suspending their rational faculties and going along with it for their amusement. Then this fictional assertion, which the audience knows is fiction and not true, is proven true with a rational experiment! What choice do the audience have but to be amazed and amused by the absurdity of it? Likewise, you cannot believe in conspiracy theories because the government have proven it was a conspiracy! Well, it is not very magical but still. True or false or true and false at the same time?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Tim Snyder Regular user Chicago, IL 112 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 14, 2020, tommy wrote: It is human diversity. I call this the "color argument." We all see color slightly differently. How do you prove the carpet is brown? I don't think you can. Either the individual sees it is brown or they don't. When I present an argument to someone, with what I believe to be undeniable facts, and yet they continue to reject the argument, I stop trying to convince them. The carpet is obviously brown, if they can't see that, what is the point of trying to convince them. Right now half the people see blue, and half see red. I hope things don't go BAD just because people refuse to see the same facts that you see. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
A thing taken out of context is often more easily described as an object.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Objects, language, among others things, can be manipulated to prove that nonsense makes sense.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Still a matter of purpose and intent. Is it just another story if it's got a whiff of authority and sprinkles of plausible?
Remember that red card. Communication has purpose. Here are some classic notions to draw a map in common experience: ethos - go with the flow. pathos - you want the nice stuff, ask "them". logos - of course it's for your own good. Like the cookie monster? Will it go away of you give it a cookie? Type "cookie". * To get scholarly about it; Free will(y) ->the orca whale -> sad story. * * The word specious was lost to the battle of the books. Likely around the time dialectic was rebranded as enemy and rhetoric went bankrupt.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
If You Are Not A Conspiracy Theorist Then You are an Idiot
a) A conspiracy theory is a theory that explains some event or events as due in part to a conspiracy, that is, to a secret plan to influence events by partly secret means. b) Every historically and politically literate person employs the strategy of sometimes believing (and sometimes being prepared to believe) conspiracy theories. c) Every historically and politically literate person is a conspiracy theorist. d) The only way not to be a conspiracy theorist is to be historically and politically illiterate that is to be, in the Greek sense of the word, an idiot. f) Therefore if you are not a conspiracy theorist then you are an idiot. The lecture will be followed by a wine reception. Charles Pigden, MA (1983)(Cambridge) PhD (1985)(La Trobe), is Director of Philosophy Politics and Economics (PHPE or PPE) at University of Otago. He has edited Russell on Ethics (1999) (winner of the Bertrand Russell Society Book Award for 2000), contributed the chapter on ethics to the Cambridge Companion to Bertrand Russell and written the entry on Russell’s Moral Philosophy for the Stanford Online Encyclopedia of Philosophy. http://www.crassh.cam.ac.uk/events/25140 To get scholarly about it. Question authority! According to who?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
So it's about the winemakers. And learning how political correctness dates back to the ancient Greek habit of expressing opinion on cue.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
The Greeks, or the Grecians according to Baby Bush, tortoise that we should never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories because they are intolerable because that would be tortological.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Steven Keyl Inner circle Washington, D.C. 2630 Posts |
I agree with you that belief is not a matter of choice. That doesn't mean that all beliefs are rationally based, just that we don't consciously choose what to believe.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!
B2B Magazine Test! Best impromptu progressive Ace Assembly ever! "If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
I don't know what to believe.
If on the one hand we do not consciously choose what to believe, then how can anyone ever be held responsible for their beliefs? If we do consciously choose our beliefs, then what beliefs go into how that choice is made? Stanislavski had some interesting advice to actors attempting to act truthfully on the stage: he said you can't force yourself to believe in what isn't true, e.g. "My uncle killed my father." That would result in forced unnatural acting. Instead, use the magic word "If": "If my uncle had killed my father, how would I behave..." That "If" allows the doors to the imagination of the actor to open to reveal a truthful-like interpretation. [BTW, this is in contrast to the popular misconception of what "method acting" is supposed to be about.] It's what I think Robert-Houdin was trying to express: "The performer is not a magician, but IF he were, how would he behave?" The audience engages with the "Magic If" on exactly the same terms: "We know the person on stage is *not* a real magician, but If he were, how would he act?" Their applause is predicated on how close the performer comes to that Iffy question.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
What do you mean by held responsible for their beliefs?
I thought that thought crimes were just a conspiracy theory.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Beliefs can lead to actions. If I'm not responsible for the beliefs, then if the chain of belief to action is agreeable, then how can I be held responsible for the actions that flow from that belief?
For example, most of us would agree that if faced with an imminent threat to ourselves by another person it is okay to try to stop that person with physical force if need be. So if I truly believe that an imminent threat to myself was about to occur, let's say a lethal threat, and I kill in what I perceive to be self-defense, then how can I be held accountable if the precipitating belief was not my responsibility. I'm not saying I endorse this--I'm just pointing out some of the moral difficulties embedded in that position. "Red-heads are an immediate destructive menace to the nation. Therefore I shall exterminate them." Is that person responsible or not? Or are we responsible for some beliefs but not others? And does it matter whether the beliefs are objectively true or not (whatever that means!)? Just thinking out loud here.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 184 Posts |
I would say you are accountable for your actions (or inactions). Beliefs don't have to be acted upon. I could believe that my neighbor is a witch and needs to be drowned. But, if I never ACT on that belief in any way, then there is nothing to hold me accountable for. The fact that I didn't choose the belief has little bearing.
In the scenario where one does act inappropriately based on an erroneous belief, then I think the details matter. Some cases may be excusable and some may not (again, the fact that one didn't choose the belief has little bearing). But this is why we have juries. My two cents. Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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