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mikenewyork New user 60 Posts |
I’m curious how everyone here responds to that. I’m constantly asked if mentalism is real and I was wondering how you guys respond to that. Because even when I do something that’s very impressive, friends and acquaintances who know me think “well I know him so I know that’s just a trick”. Or when I see people I haven’t seen in a while and they ask why I’ve been doing during the pandemic I tell them I’ve been spending all my time studying and learning mentalism. So naturally their next question is “well what do you mean by that? Is it actually real?”
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
Are you doing mentalism or mental magic?
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Dreda Veteran user 320 Posts |
- well I know him so I know that’s just a trick
- yes it's a trick of the mind |
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Haruspex New user 62 Posts |
This depends heavily on your definition of both "mentalism" and "real"
To me mentalism and magic are equally real or fake. Allot depends on your premise and the believability of it. Magic example: 2 card monte Magician: Hold this 2 of hearts, and now watch how I switch it for this 2 of diamonds. I will do it again a couple of times. Now, do you know what card is on top? (spectators makes a guess), he turns both cards over to reveal he is holding 2 black kings. not many will argue that what you did is fake, you told them you where going to switch the cards and did it, just not in the way they expected it. Mentalism example Prevaricator 2 spectators decide who of them will lie and who will tell the truth, while one of them holds a small object hidden. The mentalist says he will ask each of them if they have the object. The liar will lie, the other participant tells the truth, so basically both of them give the same answer ( either yes or no). The mentalist says that he will interpret their body language while they answer to determine who lies, who tells the truth and who is hiding the object. For those familiar with this effect, you know that this is exactly what you are doing. Again not many spectators will conclude that what you did is fake. I believe that most people will not categorize an effect as fake, as long as the premise/explanation of it is plausible. To me this is also a difference between magic and mentalism. In magic often the magician does something which the spectator knows, is impossible. so he may conclude that what he saw was fake. In mentalism most of the times the mentalist does something which is possible, but statistically unlikely. so its harder to conclude it was fake Of course there are exeptions in both categories. You will not find many manipulation acts called fake whereas you will hear it more often for big illusions claiming impossible things like sawing a lady in half, transposition, levitation, and so on. Mentalism acts with a premise of psychology, suggestion, body-language etc. are unlikely to be called fake, but as soon as you head into telekinesis or metal bending. you will hear it more often. |
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mikenewyork New user 60 Posts |
@Mindpro to be honest I don’t really know how to differentiate them. But let’s say you did a which hand is the quarter in. Probably used along with another effect but would you say that’s mentalism...reading their body language to decider what hand it’s in and get it right every time. Or is that mental magic? Either way if you do that, people wonder is it real. Maybe you do a combination of mentalism and mental magic? (Again not sure how to differentiate) but either way you wouldn’t say well down is magic and some is real would you?
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mikenewyork New user 60 Posts |
@Haruspex I totally hear what you’re saying. I agree that when people see a woman sawed in half they are gonna say that’s not real. I have more of an issue with the mentalism acts like metal bending, predictions, confabulation effects, etc
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Slim King Eternal Order Orlando 18012 Posts |
100% REAL!!!!!!!
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
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Haruspex New user 62 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 15, 2020, mikenewyork wrote: Again I think its about how you set it up. Just as an example ( and not necessarily saying one is better than the other) If you tell a spectator that you are going to read his mind and tell him the name he is thinking of... they may conclude that its fake. but asking if he would mind that you try to guess the name and then doing it... may result in a very different reaction. For me personally: I don't do metal bending ( I used to do it when I just started, but I never found a believable premise for it, so I stopped doing it). both predictions and confabulation I tend to present as demonstrations of influence. |
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mikenewyork New user 60 Posts |
Right I also try and present predictions and confabulations as demonstrations of influence. So I’m wondering though after you do that let’s assume it’s at a dinner party and someone who is a friend of a friend you end up talking to later on and they ask so is that real? Or when I say I study mentalism and they say is it just a trick or are you really learning to influence peoples behavior? How do you respond to that?
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ringmaster Inner circle Memphis, Down in Dixie 1974 Posts |
Of course it's real, didn't you just see it ?
One of the last living 10-in-one performers. I wanted to be in show business the worst way, and that was it.
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
People can either see something impossible/improbable performed, or have a real experience of magic or the paranormal.
Some of the difference is expectations and some framing and presentation - and being live. Seeing a movie or YouTube magical effect is never real. If you wish to see the craters on the moon, I can show you photos as a vicarious experience. Or, I can take you outside and use a trick to let you see the craters directly - a telescope. The existence of a trick or special knowledge is not the critical factor in having a real experience. I have had some very real life experiences that many would consider paranormal and cannot be reproduced on stage. Since I cannot prove the event occurred some would say it is not real. Just pointing out that the definition of "real" is slippery.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Christopher Taylor V.I.P. British Columbia Canada 2314 Posts |
I love magic, and I am naive as hell, so I searched around for a way to look at things until I found a way to see it at work every day. I found that way in theatre: I saw that comedy is a theatrical concept who's shape on stage we recognize from "real life". Likewise, I saw that tragedy is a theatrical concept who's shape we recognize on stage because we all know what it looks and feels like in real life. Magic is the same way; it is a theatrical concept with a distinct and beautiful shape. And, we all recognizance something magical when we experience it just as clearly as we recognize something funny or something tragic. All three are "real", and in their own way, beautiful.
CT |
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David Thiel Inner circle Western Canada...where all that oil is 4005 Posts |
Someone takes an object...hides it in a room...doesn't speak a word. The performer simply takes their hand and without a single thing being written down or spoken, he goes directly to wherever the object is hidden.
A mentalist walks into an audience full of people he genuinely does not know and begins revealing things about these strangers. Again: nothing written down...no communication at all. Is it real? How about the times when the performer says something that he could not possibly know...and he's right? IS it real? There is a significant difference between magic and mentalism. It has been gone over again and again. Either people understand it or they don't. (Most don't.) The second question: Magic to who? If, by magic you mean something profoundly paranormal -- or classically magical -- you need to define whether it's magic to the performer who has spent many hours defining techniques...or to the audience who watch the performance. I'd say, in all honesty, that there have been many times in performances where the line blurs between technique and performance --- and performance and magic. And people will either understand that...or they won't. (Most won't.) David
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.
My books are here: www.magicpendulums.com www.MidnightMagicAndMentalism.com |
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Mr. Woolery Inner circle Fairbanks, AK 2149 Posts |
I get the impression that you, mikenewyork, are in high school or early college. You like the apparent impossible nature of mind reading. Most of us here feel that way. But let me make a suggestion for you to toy with.
Get a really cheap book about ESP development. Used, this might set you back a dollar. New, maybe $6. Get some sticky notes. Write words on them like “Moscow 1966,” or “Smith and Wilson,” or just “dogs?” Stick them on random pages. Dog-ear a bunch of pages. All you’re doing is creating a prop. A prop that gives you an excuse to “try something.” Here’s the conversation I imagine: “Say, mikenewyork! I haven’t seen you in a while! Whatcha been up to?” “Oh, suzanluvscats67! It has been a long time! Actually, it is sort of embarrassing, but I’ve been reading a really weird book.” “What do you mean weird?” “Lemme show you. I’ve got it here, actually. Don’t laugh, okay?” (Pull out your book prop.) “Ha, ha, ha! You believe in that stuff?” “Six months ago, I would have said no. I’m still not really believing it, but some of this stuff is kinda... well can I just try something with you and see if it works with you? It seems to work about half the time, which is really confusing to me.” Now do whatever you want that is a mind reading effect. You can do tricks from books Mark Wilson’s course and they’ll be fine. Ask for playing cards (actually, since you claim it is a psychic development test from the book, you can justify bringing your own, even). If they want to read the description of the test in the book, you are probably not being very interesting yourself. But let them look. If they can’t find it, remember it must be in another book you have at home. This will be a terrible way to script a show, but it can work well in a social setting. You set it up by saying it is something that doesn’t always work. So your first trick can be sure-fire (and bulletproof, if you can manage), but you can do stuff that is statistical in nature in a similar framework. Example: they think of a childhood friend and write the name. You tear up the paper and discard the pieces. Haltingly, you discern the name and come really close (George when the name was Georgia, for example). Now, they write down a fruit, an animal, and a color. You have THEM rip up the paper. You get impressions, write down Apple, Dog, Blue and then ask for their answers. Right or wrong, show your answers. Someone thought those words. You must be connecting with someone else if she didn’t think of those things. Now, have them envision one random playing card. Divine it. You are getting tired, but that’s the sort of weird coincidence that makes you not quite dismiss this stuff as totally fake. Patrick |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
OK - example. Decades ago before cell phones, I was performing at my cousin's request for group of s dozen strangers. She chimed in with, "Do that walking mind reading thing." I do not like doing Helstromism unless I have full audience attention and appreciation. Here some folks were still chatting amongst themselves and snacking. I began my introductory explanations and was had just selected a volunteer assistant when I noticed a man glancing at the telephone with wry smile. I said,
"One of you is planning on suggesting that I attempt to call his girl friend on that telephone. This would not work since she is not home yet from the hard salon." I walked over, picked up the phone, unplugged it and handed it to the guy. "There is another plug out in the hall and you can try in ten minutes." I then explained that this action would be to intricate and that the selected action not involve dexterity or myself. I now had everyone's attention and the setting was "real" for my performance. I then continued with successful demonstration with the VA. (a selection of one book out of stack and moving to another table and set a pencil on it). I then asked if the group would like to see another demonstration or a different form of telepathy. The phone guy said, "You already have me freaked out. I had not thought anyone could actually read minds like this. Can't you do something a little less dramatic?" So, I taught them all "Close Call" that they could at home as a real innate paranormal ability. It was a very real experience for everyone. Was the telepathy real? In their minds and memory - yes. Will they tell as story of having experienced "authentic" telepathy? Yes.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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mikenewyork New user 60 Posts |
I guess it just becomes more difficult when you are performing for people you know or that have known you for a while. With strangers if you say yes it’s real that’s one thing. With people who have known you for a while it’s a little harder for them to believe that you haven’t seen them in 6 months to a year but now you can actually read minds, etc
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Dylenium New user 52 Posts |
I am a beginner myself, so don't take anything I say as the absolute truth.
What you say is essentially true. People just don't believe that you can develop truly impressive abilities in half a year. And that is because you cant. Imagine you walk up to a friend and say "Wanna see something really cool?" And when they say yes you take 5 oak wood planks out of your bag and smash them with a single strike of your bare fist. This certainly is something that many would find impressive. But most people would for sure believe it was a trick. Maybe you prepared the planks with a saw beforehand or something like that. Now another situation: You see your friend after some time and tell them you started doing martial arts. They ask you about it and you have a conversation about your new hobby. Half a year later you tell them you made your orange belt. Somehow this is something that comes very easy for you. Another half year later you show them a single oak wood plank and break it with your bare fist. This is still impressive! But this time no one will think it is a trick. They know you have been training. Even tough you learned faster then others this is 100% believable. If we take this over to mentalism, it is just natural that if they don't see you for half a year and suddenly you are able to tell them exactly what word they think of that its not believable. Same with a living or dead test where you have it 100% correct, possibly even with one predictet miss. that's too good. Funsway made a good post about that on another thread where I asked a question ( https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view......21150#10 ) Instead of doing mental miracles right from the start, begin with simple stuff. For example a which hand routine where you use actual body language, of course its not 100% success rate but again no one expects that when you just started of. Another thing in that direction would be a tic tac toe prediction. Its not that extremly impressive when you think about, but its 100% believable (probably because there is no real trickery). I am constantly on the search for material that goes into that range of "Yes it is possible but still impressive" at best even without any trickery. There truly isn't much material around since most wouldnt perform stuff like that on stage, but it is perfect for beginners that want to come over as genuine amongst their peers. (If you know stuff that goes into that direction feel free to PM me ) Also personally, caliming that you can influence people should be one of the later things to do. Just think about it, whats more believable: 1. I can tell if you lie or not 2. I can influence you to say a lie when I want and the truth when I want to. Of course you wouldnt use influence with a lie detection test, but I think you get the point. Also claiming to influence people isn't something that makes you very likeable. Who do you want as a friend, someone that knows how you feel due to obersvation or someone that influences you to do what you want? You need very good social skill to not come over as a ****** when you present influence effects in an informal setting. This is however just my personal opinion and many more experienced performers may not agree. In general it also helps to develop a consistent persona for your effects and think about "how you do things". There is a good thread from david thiel about that ( https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view......forum=15 ). If there is a inner process as to how you do what you do it automatically seems more believable and those questions wont come as often. I hope this helped. Have a nice day Dylan |
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mikenewyork New user 60 Posts |
Well said Dylan!! I agree with what you said for sure. Thanks foe the input!
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Ever Elizalde New user 50 Posts |
Everything is an illusion. If it feels real, then it is. Your powers are as real as how good you are at convincing people of them.
I have a background in illustration/painting and I like to think about it this way: When you are painting a portrait, you start with a sketch... that would be your bases or your fundations. Everything that you put on top will succeed or perish depending on how good your fundations are. So you have the sketch, and it is well made. Now you start to paint the base colors in. For the base colors you have to paint color as if no light and no shadow is affecting it. This would be your "trick" or "effect" Now you have something good, but it is not fooling anyone. Everyone knows they are looking at something that is not real. Real life is an illusion composed by light and how it interacts with everything in it. The brain knows this even if at a deeper level. The next step would be just that, adding light, and shadows to make everything look more real. The better you are at this, the most convinving your piece will be. Real life is is an illusion composed by context, logic, etc. That's the equivalent of light and shadows in a painting. Get better at this and you will be seen more real. Creating hyper-realistic art is very difficult, but it can be done. You've seen it. There are times when you cannot differenciate between an hyper-realistic painting and real life. If this is what you want to achieve, be my guest. It is really difficult and it requires a lot of effort and compromise, but it can be done. Me? I rather not reach those levels. I like it when my paintings look real, but also stylized. Like a "cartoon-ish" representation of reality. I find that much more interesting, and it's the same with how I perform my mentalism. I don't know if any of this will make any sense, but there you have it. Hope this is good at least as food for thought. |
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mindmagic Inner circle London 1740 Posts |
My suggestion would be to read up on genuine parapsychology research. Dean Radin's book "Real Magic" (yes, that is the title) is both an entertaining read and a good one to refer to if anyone asks whether it's really possible to read minds. If you're familiar with the research you'll never be stuck for "patter" either.
The best and most authoritative online source for material is: https://psi-encyclopedia.spr.ac.uk/ Don't bother with Wikipedia; it keeps getting edited by sceptics. Barry |
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