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Nikodemus Inner circle 1140 Posts |
Hi
Can anyone offer any advice on this please? I can do an Under Spread Force reasonably well if I just [/b] display [b] the forced card, because it seems natural enough to square the cards in my right hand before raising them to show the spectator. Is there a variation to toss the card to the table instead? (Or hand it to the spectator). The problem I am having is it seems really suspicious to square the cards, then extract the bottom one. The best idea I have so far is to tap the edges of both packets together, then put the left hand packet down, and then remove bottom card fro right packet with left fingers. So it kind of looks like your intention was to square the left packet but the right packet is also squared by accident. But I am not happy with this. I want it to look much cleaner (but also be fairly straightforward!) Thanks |
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ThomasJ Special user Chicago 999 Posts |
Do the typical underspread until the moment when you’d normally square the right hand packet against the left - the right hand packet slightly spread and parallel to the floor, the left hand packet squared and perpendicular to the right packet. As the hands both move upward to show the card, place the left packet along the right edge of the bottom card of the right packet (this is not the force card). Simultaneously straighten the right fingers, pushing lightly leftward (as if you were spreading the cards with one hand). The card will square against the left packet and very cleanly become the bottom card of the right hand packet, which is still spread.
I turn my head away to the left. The purpose of the left packet is seemingly to further block my view of the card as it is shown. You can then place the card down or have them remove it from the spread. |
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JonHackl Regular user Western Australia 198 Posts |
If you can act very natural, then say, "I'm going to show you your card...", square up the packet and display it, then add, "Actually let's put it down on the table." If you do it completely nonchalantly, it's a very natural thing to do. They don't know where the trick is going, and for moment it almost looks like you don't know either: very casual and natural.
It's the sort of thing that happens in real life a lot. Say I'm helping my son on his car and I'm trying to position a flashlight so I can get a better look, then I say, "Here, can you hold this and shine it right there." I start one way, then change my mind. I guess this probably depends on your presentation style. Mine is very casual and natural, so I do this kind of thing (acting like I'm changing my mind on a whim) quite a bit. But if you're projecting mastery and confidence and great supernatural powers, maybe it won't fit
"Magic is the only kind of entertainment where 90% of the audience is trying to ruin it for themselves." - Pete Holmes
https://www.lybrary.com/ivy-p-925586.html |
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magicfish Inner circle 7006 Posts |
If you just want to put the card on the table, see Marlo's B.D.E.
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts |
Is the card's identity meant to be kept a secret? Is that why you want to table it instead of displaying it?
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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Nikodemus Inner circle 1140 Posts |
Thanks for your responses..
The card is not secret; the spectator will look at it. I want the spectator to take the card, look at it, then put it back. This would give me the opportunity to control where it is returned (eg with a Bluff Pass). More broadly, I really like the Under Spread Force, because the spectator seems to have such a free choice. And it is one of the sleights I feel I am reasonably good at. It seems like a nice idea to be able to deal out the card, not just flash it. No doubt there are other forces that fit those criteria - so I am open to suggestions. |
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jim ferguson Veteran user Ayrshire, Scotland 386 Posts |
Check out Michael Vincents "Kismet", from his Classic Collection volume 1, for his handling of this.
You could also, instead of placing one of the packets on the table, keep them together as the right fingers pull out the "selection" part of the way. The spectator can then remove the outjogged card, reinforcing the idea that the selection is from the centre. If the idea is to control the card, there is no need to have it removed. You could easily display the card as you usually do, then close the spread and control it from there (cull, pass, shuffle, double undercut etc). Jim |
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Wravyn Inner circle 3482 Posts |
Forgive me for not grasping why you wish to control where it is replaced. If you are controling where it is placed, you don't need to force a card and if you are forcing a card, where it is replaced doesn't matter.
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Nikodemus Inner circle 1140 Posts |
Thanks for all your brilliant suggestions!
ThomasJ - I really like your technique. I have also figured out I can do pretty much the same thing without raising & showing the cards. Left thumb secures the card touched by the spectator. Both hands push together somewhat - right fingers straightening underneath. It looks like you close the spread a bit, whilst keeping the touched card side-jjogged to the left. Meanwhile the force card is slid to the left by the straightening right fingers until it butts up against the left packet. JonHack1 - a straightforward solution! I could flash it and toss it down in one action, with actually saying anything. MagicFish - I have done a quick search. Bottom Deal Exchange was published in a book called Mint 2, that seems to be long out of print. Is there another source? Jim Ferguson - I will follow up Kismet. Out-jogging the force card sounds good - but it needs to look like it is the same card they touched. Also there is a discrepancy between asking them to touch a card, then out-jogging it so they can pull it out. I don't think I have the skill to get away with that. If they touch the card, and I appear to drop it on the table, I think the sleight would be less obvious (in my hands). I can't "easily" control it from there, because I am still learning. (I certainly can't do a pass yet!) Wravyn - I enjoy playing with ideas and setting myself challenges. Basically I am experimenting with the techniques currently at my disposal, seeing what the pros & cons are, exploring where they can be extended, and garnering ideas for what I might want to work on next. This idea is based on Chicago Opener/Surprise not using the Hindu or Classic force, and with a transposition at the end. The first selection is on top of the deck. I want to force the force card, then control it to underneath the card on top of the deck. I have been working on the Bluff Pass, so thought that would be a good way to do it. That seems to require a force where the card leaves the deck & is returned. |
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magicfish Inner circle 7006 Posts |
The Classic Magic of Larry Jennings.
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JonHackl Regular user Western Australia 198 Posts |
Nikodemus, this is interesting. So you want to do this sequence:
1. Under-spread force 2. Table the selected card 3. Spectator re-inserts card, so that... 4. bluff control If you have more than one spectator, I think 2 can be justified. So, force the card, display, then table it saying, "Here, show it to everyone else but don't let me see it." You turn away a little so you don't see it, then turn back and let them return the card so you can execute the bluff. How does that sound? If it's just you and one spectator, there must be some options. I'm curious whether the card needs to be tabled for the spec to pick up, or whether you might hand it to them. What's the reason for the tabling? In your reply to my first suggestion, you said you might just flash it and table it one motion, without saying anything. I think you should say something even in this case. I would say something like, "Here, you take it and take a good look at it; make sure you remember it." Overall it's kind of awkward combining the spread force with the bluff control. It might be a little smoother to skip the tabling. Separate the spread where they point, square the cards to complete the force, then hold it up pushing the card out with the right fingers, then hold it down towards them so they can take the card. Is the tabling necessary?
"Magic is the only kind of entertainment where 90% of the audience is trying to ruin it for themselves." - Pete Holmes
https://www.lybrary.com/ivy-p-925586.html |
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Nikodemus Inner circle 1140 Posts |
I happen to own the Michael Vincent DVD set.
His technique is brilliant. He makes it looks so easy. But I am struggling with it. JonHackl - it doesn't matter if the card is tabled vs handed to the spectator, the goal is to get it out of the deck then re-inserted at different place. I thought this would be an easy way to force the card AND then control it to a specific location - but maybe there is a better way. Either way, it's all part of the learning process. Michael Vincent asks the spec to touch a card. Then asks if he wants to change his mind. Then hands him the card and tells him not to look at it yet. There is a slight discrepancy here, but too subtle to be a problem. (If the spectator is going to end up taking the card anyway, why initially ask them just to touch it?) So if it's ok for MV, I am happy with they idea of touch-a-card followed by handing them the card (or tabling it). |
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JonHackl Regular user Western Australia 198 Posts |
I never had a problem with touch-then-take. I do that a lot myself. I thought we were discussing the awkwardness of display-then-table. Anyway, sounds like you have a plan!
"Magic is the only kind of entertainment where 90% of the audience is trying to ruin it for themselves." - Pete Holmes
https://www.lybrary.com/ivy-p-925586.html |
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Nikodemus Inner circle 1140 Posts |
Thanks for all the great suggestions. I have learnt a lot.
I have now realised I can make this much easier by using a duplicate card! So I can create the effect I want, whilst still aspiring to do it maybe one day without the dup. |
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Nikodemus Inner circle 1140 Posts |
A quick update -
I have been practicing & experimenting the last few days. 1. For anyone struggling with Michael Vincent's technique - I have realised I was making it hard for myself because I was looking down at the cards as I did the sleight. Which made it look really obvious. Then I tried doing it in a mirror. It instantly looked better. Then I added a forward movement of my hands to disguise the sleight. Finally a small upward tilt of the cards as I did the move. This really helped. 2. Re Thomas's nice "squaring" action. I came up with another way to display the card, which seems very clean, and requires no squaring action. Simply display the card in the left hand instead of the right. To do this you just need to pin the back of the touched card with your left thumb. The right hand takes away the cards above as you raise your left hand. This puts you in the rather useful position of having the indifferent touched card on top of the apparently top card which you show. You can then bury the top card in the deck, leaving the force card on top. |
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JonHackl Regular user Western Australia 198 Posts |
Quote:
On Jan 10, 2021, Nikodemus wrote: I like that a lot! It's a very clean force and a very clean control all in one. I know that for most tricks that's overkill, but if you do need both it's great. Even using a random slider instead of a force card makes this a great control, in my opinion.
"Magic is the only kind of entertainment where 90% of the audience is trying to ruin it for themselves." - Pete Holmes
https://www.lybrary.com/ivy-p-925586.html |
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magicfish Inner circle 7006 Posts |
You want Larry Jennings' Open Control. It is taught by Harry Lorayne on page 92 of his Best of Friends Vol.1.
Darwin Ortiz makes good use of it in one of his more popular effects from Card Shark. The back of the card is touched, the hand is raised to show the face, and then the hand lowers and thumbs the card onto the table. It is excellent. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Re justification for tabling the card: COVID.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Nikodemus Inner circle 1140 Posts |
Quote:
On Jan 10, 2021, landmark wrote: I did literally LOL when I read this! |
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Nikodemus Inner circle 1140 Posts |
A quick update for anyone interested -
I just found a description in SIMPLY SIMON by Simon Aronson. p232 in the section on Open Index. This is a detailed description of the technique shown by Michael Vincent in the DVD mentioned above. I also came up with a slight variation of my own - Michael V and Simon A both release the card from the RH spread with the right hand (ie one-handed). They make the necessary "adjustment" beforehand to make this possible. I found it a bit easier to break the spread at the selected card, gesture with the left hand, possibly put down the LH packet, then use my LEFT hand to remove the bottom card from the RH spread. This happens in a split second. So long as you don't look at your own hands, I don't think anyone else will. There is a tiny discrepancy, but no one is looking anyway. If I don't want to put the LH packet down, I push it back slightly (one-handed) to free up my index finger so I can cleanly take the RH card with left thumb & index finger. (This sounds more complicated than it is!) |
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