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Skitch
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I was wondering does anyone on here do this? If so can someone please PM me, thank you.....
§kitch
Banachek
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SKitch, I am in the process of working on a book that will hopefully cover everything and anything you could want to know on the subject.
In thoughts and Friendship
Banachek
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Philemon Vanderbeck
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Muscle reading (or contact mind-reading) is one of the four essential skills of a mentalist. And thus, it's a mystery why I've never learned how to do it with enough proficiency to try it in the "real world."

To me, it has the same hurdle that cold-reading faces... it's pretty much an all or nothing proposition. Either you do it, or you don't. The initial learning curve is fairly steep.

With that in mind, I eagerly await Banachek's treatise on the subject. I'm sure it will contain valuable insight on how an insecure performer (namely me) can learn how to incorporate this skill into their repertoire as quickly as possible.
Professor Philemon Vanderbeck
That Creepy Magician
"I use my sixth sense to create the illusion of possessing the other five."
Millard123
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Millard Longman
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Quote:
On 2002-07-26 15:15, Banachek wrote:
SKitch, I am in the process of working on a book that will hopefully cover everything and anything you could want to know on the subject.


I would appreciate a video also (in addition to the book).

Millard
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Brash
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Quote:
On 2002-07-26 15:15, Banachek wrote:
SKitch, I am in the process of working on a book that will hopefully cover everything and anything you could want to know on the subject.


Now I am intrigued. Any idea on when you will have the book completed? Much like Philemon, I have had difficulty tackling this because it is difficult to find opportunities to practice.
Allen Gittelson
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I have on occasion used muscle reading and/or other forms of body reading. Satori's book is wonderful, and I've certainly also gained useful insight from what Banachek wrote in Psychological Sublteties in this area (and so many others). This is an excellent example of an area where the only way to really gain the skill is to work it. You build muscles by flexing them. I would highly recommend reading some of the key works on the subject and putting what is written into practice.

I also would be very eager to read and use any information released by Banachek. I'm excited to know he is working on something in this area.

From my mind to yours,
Allen
Banachek
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Hi Brash, sorry no mention on when the book will be out. We learn't the hard way from the video :-0 each time we thought it should be out it did not make it.

Will let you know when
In thoughts and Friendship
Banachek
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Darmoe
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I have to side with Philemon (once again) and support the idea that everyone involved with Mentalism needs to know at least the basics behind this technique. In my personal experience it is one element of skill that allows the performer the greatest of advantages. In short, you can do a full evening show with little else (and I've done numerous improv. demos that ran an easy 20-minutes without boring the audience!)

In the Psychic Technologies series there will soon be a book in the collection that deals with this and my use of the Blindfold as part of a Psychic Fair promotion & PR presentation.

I've been waiting with baited breath, for the Banachek book since a certain mutual friend of ours informed me that it was in the works.
"I firmly believe that of all the Arts and Crafts of Mentalism, there is nothing more satisfying than one who is a first-class Reader. It is the ultimate in Mentalism..." - Tony Corinda * 13 Steps To Mentalism
Sniper
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I made a comment in another post about how Contact Mindreading (Muscle reading)
1. Is a good technique for beginners to explore and
2. Is pretty much "the real thing".

In fact there have been many "non" magician types who've become very adept at it. I first tried it when I was 12 years old. And was successful the first time. I don't know who was more surprised - my friend or myself. Fact is, it is not difficult to do a basic test like "finding the penny". The more complex tasks DO require a lot of practice - and more importantly, confidence. But it is like anything else, work at it, and you will get better.

Ironically, ones magical background - and the cynicism which seems to naturally arise from it - can actually act as an inhibitor to the success of the demonstration!

Try it with people who "know" you can do weird stuff, and you will be successful. In fact you will probably be more impressed than anyone else! Especially if they have seen you do more "impressive" stuff (non-contact things with words etc).

Contact Mindreading: packs flat, instant reset!

:nod:

Sn!per
Hal Weaver
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Quote:
On 2002-07-26 16:01, Philemon wrote:
To me, it has the same hurdle that cold-reading faces... it's pretty much an all or nothing proposition. Either you do it, or you don't. The initial learning curve is fairly steep.

With that in mind, I eagerly await Banachek's treatise on the subject. I'm sure it will contain valuable insight on how an insecure performer (namely me) can learn how to incorporate this skill into their repertoire as quickly as possible.



Friends,

I'm eager to see Banachek's book too.

Several years ago, I wrote a piece for MAGIC on the subject, with a fairly detailed description of one way to learn to do it. I also pointed out that you can practice on a small scale, and frame what you do as an experiment in having the participant send thoughts to you, rather than in your reading their minds. The heat is taken off you, and you can't fail. It is only an experiment, and it just means they can't send you their thoughts.

But you can get experience and develop your skill.

Hal
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[quote]On 2002-07-27 00:18, Hal Weaver wrote:
Quote:
Several years ago, I wrote a piece for MAGIC on the subject


Friends,

That should be MAGICK, not Magic.

Hal
christopher carter
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This will sound odd to most, although I suspect that those who practice contact mind-reading on a regular basis will second it when they hear. One of the more useful ways to understand contact mindreading is to study stage hypnosis. The opening lecture, selection of volunteers, and the means of increasing the range (or perhaps 'intensity' might be a better word when it comes to muscle reading) is remarkably similar between both crafts.

Those of you who haven't yet gotten up the nerve to try it in a show situation, you will find that it is vastly easier in the context of a stage performance than it is when you are practicing with friends. This is true for the same reasons that stage hypnosis works so quickly.

Finally, Satori's book is very good, no doubt Banachek's will be excellent, but my personal favorite is Stanton Carlyle's Master Mentality. In it, he describes a really functional approach to practicing the skill in a real show. If you can find the book, get it.

--Christopher Carter
Darmoe
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Quote:
On 2002-07-26 20:07, Sniper wrote:
I made a comment in another post about how Contact Mindreading (Muscle reading)
1. Is a good technique for beginners to explore and
2. Is pretty much "the real thing".

In fact there have been many "non" magician types who've become very adept at it. I first tried it when I was 12 years old. And was successful the first time. I don't know who was more surprised - my friend or myself. Fact is, it is not difficult to do a basic test like "finding the penny". The more complex tasks DO require a lot of practice - and more importantly, confidence. But it is like anything else, work at it, and you will get better.

Ironically, ones magical background - and the cynicism which seems to naturally arise from it - can actually act as an inhibitor to the success of the demonstration!

Try it with people who "know" you can do weird stuff, and you will be successful. In fact you will probably be more impressed than anyone else! Especially if they have seen you do more "impressive" stuff (non-contact things with words etc).

Contact Mindreading: packs flat, instant reset!

:nod:

Sn!per


I wanted to start off with reference to what Sniper says here...

CMR or MR (however you want to refer to it) is, according to science the closest thing to genuine Telepathy that is publically endorsed. As Nelson brings out in his book Hellstromism, those that work with this method regularly over a number of years, tend to pick up a unique kind of "sensitivity" in which little to no direct contact is required.

I bring this out because this reality behind MR has frightened off scores of magicians and would-be mentalists. In short, this stuff can send some serious chills down your spine. It can, once mastered, be one of your greatest assets however.

Most know that my "Day Job" is that of being a Reader. When warmed up and practiced a bit with MR I have been able to sit, holding a person's hand, and ask them to just think about the person that's passed over or whatever the case may be... frequently I'll encourage them to visualize themselves writing a letter to that person... not one word has been said, they've never stated the name and yet, as if taken over by the spirit, I jot the name of that person on a piece of scribble paper...

Put yourself in the seat of the patron and tell me you aren't going to go out and tell your friends about such a Psi experience Smile

Though some have debated it, I've found that there are some subtle differences between Muscle Reading & what Nelson called HELLSTROMISM. Long story short, Houdini, Kellar, etc. knew about Muscle Reading and yet, demonstrations by Hellstrom blew their mind and left them unable to explain how he did what he did. Houdini himself endorsed Alex Hellstrom as being one of the few legit psychics he'd ever met.

By today's standards (the Skeptic's pov) said quality would not be permitted. We've become calloused in our witness and discounted the technology once reserved for the "initiate"... in other words, MR is part of the occult studies -- a mystery teaching. Just because we now know about it and can "scientifically" explain it, the skeptic world has removed it from its legit role as being a "psychic skill" e.g. an expanded mode of consciousness and thus, belittled the technique to the status of being a "parlor trick".

Perspective is everything! In this instance, knowing the background of a technique literally used for countless generations within the Gypsy clans and mystery school cultures, allows us to see just one example of how "changed perceptions" redefine certain realities or, to be more direct, lend to us the excuse we need to not believe or avow the existence of that which is beyond our desired level of accepted understanding.

Just something to ponder
"I firmly believe that of all the Arts and Crafts of Mentalism, there is nothing more satisfying than one who is a first-class Reader. It is the ultimate in Mentalism..." - Tony Corinda * 13 Steps To Mentalism
christopher carter
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Quote:

By today's standards (the Skeptic's pov) said quality would not be permitted.
Perspective is everything! In this instance, knowing the background of a technique literally used for countless generations within the Gypsy clans and mystery school cultures



It should be remembered that Nelson's account of the reception that Hellstrom received in the states was somewhat hyperbolic. That being said, I disagree slightly with the belief that a skeptic culture prevent exponents of cmr from being perceived as psychics today. The Russian fellow who was so good and who appeared on Letterman a few times, was billed as a psychic to nary a fuss from the skeptic world. And to put things in a historical perspective, the same 'real vs. not real' debate about CMR occured at its inception. John Randall Brown and Washington Irving Bishop both had to contend with a skeptical community who saw the physiological underpinnings of the craft. JR Brown embraced the scientific explanation, apparently deciding it legitimized his work. In fact, it does, I believe, and I talk about this when I do it in my show. Bishop, on the other hand, largely fought against the skeptics. In terms of attitudes toward this sort of thing, not that much has really changed.

Darmoe, when you write of CMR being handed down through Gypsy culture for generations, I too have long felt it likely that what became CMR emerged from the same spiritist tradition that gave us table-tilting, automatic writing, and the like. But I have found no historical confirmation of this. For me it remains supposition and logical inference. Do you have any textual support for this claim? I would really love to see it.

--Christopher Carter
Darmoe
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Sigh! Smile Given what you've shared with me about your past "ties" with Wicca I hope you'll understand what I'm about to say... Yes, there is textual data regarding this but NO, it's not available to the general public.

I know this sounds like some kind of fantasy tale but the truth is a noted family that can prove its legacy around mysticism and its antiquity have volumes of books concerning magick and the paranormal... Marcy (my X) is part of that family tradition and I have in fact seen reference to this technique in a Grimoire entry dating from the middle ages and referring to the method as being "an ancient and guarded knowledge" at that time. I'm certain Ray Buckland could consign what I'm stating here.

Just so things don't get twisted once again... I'm only expressing that antiquity around this skill/natural phenomena can be traced via private sources. I'm uncertain about "official" sources but wouldn't be overly surprised if some of the old Witchcraft trials didn't lend reference to using such skills e.g. dowsing, etc.

The purpose of this post is to reveal what I know about the techniques antiquity and lore.

In regards to the debate you mention Chris... I've only found reference to that in the Shantz book... he had a serious personality problem with Nelson (so it is said) so that must be wieghed a bit. Though I doubt he'd ever confirm it all (because he disowned the magician's society long ago) the legacy from Hellstrom went to Nelson and via Nelson to a young up-start named George Kreskin... go figure! Smile
"I firmly believe that of all the Arts and Crafts of Mentalism, there is nothing more satisfying than one who is a first-class Reader. It is the ultimate in Mentalism..." - Tony Corinda * 13 Steps To Mentalism
christopher carter
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Quote:
On 2002-07-27 12:00, Darmoe wrote:
Sigh! Smile Given what you've shared with me about your past "ties" with Wicca I hope you'll understand what I'm about to say... Yes, there is textual data regarding this but NO, it's not available to the general public.



You might have me mixed up with somebody else, as I have no ties with Wicca other than a healthy curiosity about other people's ways.

I can't tell for sure, but you seem to feel I'm attacking you. I'm not. There's no doubt that ideo-motor phenomena plays a strong role in many spiritistic traditions. Dowsing is a great example of this. Many of these phenomena didn't seem to gell into distinct genres or performance modes until the 19th century. My hypothesis is that what we know of as muscle-reading or contact mind-reading didn't come into its own until about that time, at least. It must have had precedents, of course, but my guess is that the discreet effects, such as reconstructing tableaus, locating words in books, completing complex tasks, probably were elaborations of some less well defined tests. Probably the location of hidden objects came first, I'm thinking, since it is so structurally similar to dowsing. If there is earlier reference to cmr performances, as a matter of scholarship, I am interested.

It is my belief that CMR was able to emerge in the 19th century due to two aspects of the spiritualist movement. First, the movement in this time saw itself as a scientific validation of things spiritual. Because of this pervasive view, members of the movement were probably aware of the nacent science of psychology, and the emerging concept of unconscious mental processes. It seems likely to me that a few perceptive individuals could see in this opportunities to refine and expand upon some comparatively simple processes. Second, Spiritualism always had a strong theatrical element. As it mainstreamed, mediums seem to have felt pressure to devise newer and more elaborate displays of their mediumship. You can see, for example, the progression from rapping, to table tilting, to Lulu Hursts performance. Tilting requires no self-consciousness on the part of the operator. It's the sort of effect that can arise organically. Hursts show, however, shows clear signs of being designed. The sequence of effects indicates an awareness of the operation of suggestion within the show.

So I think CMR emerged in a very similar fashion from the collision of science and religion. Having said that, my hypothesis doesn't hold up too well if the timeline is pushed too far back. It might hold up well to the 1780's and probably not much earlier than that. This is why I'm so interested in the lineage.

--Christopher Carter
Darmoe
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Smile O.k. I may have you confused... I thought you were the same person that was dating a girl involved in Wicca, I spoke with some time back... nonetheless... I LOVE YOUR THEORY! Very interesting perspectives.

In truth, Science & Religion were one in the same thing well into the mid 3rd century when the formalization of Romanized Christianity (Catholocism) was authored and given power by Constantine & Co. Shortly after this anything that didn't sustain the official position and authority of Rome was labeled as demonic, pagan, etc.

I dont' recall the actual title but it deals with Ancient Inventions of the pre-christian era. This book (amongst others) reveals how much in scientific advancement Church Law destroyed, criminalized, etc. Remember, this is the birth of the Dark Ages and some of the bloodiest history the world has known. The ancient mystery schools, libraries, colleges, etc. were destroyed alogn with their contents. The teachers of these institutiosn were murdered by the score (unless they denounced their knowledge and former faith and embraced Rome, etc.... who needs a miracle when you have a sword?)

My point being, science & religion didn't come back into a quasi-friendly relationship until the early Renaissance and again, in the early/mid-portion of the 20th century (following the Monkey Trial era)... even at that Science just recently (about 100 years ago) seperated itself from one of its occult cousins -- Astrology. Though its counterpart still uses the terms, etc.the scientific mind no longer recognizes the more subtle physics associated with its elder aspect.

You are correct in your time line theory about the Spiritualist movement (and you can't forget the Theosophical Socieities when looking at this.)

In regards to the topic itself, I believe that the subconscious factors surrounding CMR could, form a Darwinian pov, be traced back to those innate "senses" known to our ancestors and even the animals of today's world, that allow them to sense danger, movement in the earth, etc. I believe it is very closely linked to our own natural intuition and can be expanded upon at levels we've yet begun to touch upon. Robert Nelson shared that view and was seen a laughing stock by many, because of it. But I think he, like me, had something that was so elusive and yet phenomenal, words couldn't express the impact of what is felt, experienced, etc.

Smile
"I firmly believe that of all the Arts and Crafts of Mentalism, there is nothing more satisfying than one who is a first-class Reader. It is the ultimate in Mentalism..." - Tony Corinda * 13 Steps To Mentalism
liormanor
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There was a Russian man in Israel that used
to work with the late Ami Dayan.
He did things that are like real mindreading

He is not here any more
Yaniv Deautsch
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His name was/is Boris Tulchinski and to be honest he wasn't that amazing if you compare him to other preformers in this erea.

Yaniv Deautsch
liormanor
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I saw him on TV and he was amazing
I know that he worked a lot with Ami Dayn
Who do you comapre with??
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