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Metalepsis Loyal user 232 Posts |
I would just like to start a thread on how to learn by watching. I *never* comment on what I have just seen at a show or in front of others, but I often pick up bits or sometimes the whole trick. I think this is a useful and important skill...
Also, sometimes you go home and reverse engineer something, in fact it may not even be the way you just saw it. Still, inventing a method after observing an effect is also a useful skill. Sometimes I want to ask a professional privately if a particular move or method is part of their show, but I never do as I suspect they would think it rude. Any advice on this front? M |
jcigam Special user Bellevue, Nebraska 512 Posts |
Here is a story whether it bares any significance to your post, you can decide.
A certain performer (I would like to say but feel it isn't my place to bash him) was lecturing for us (few years ago). I was sitting in the back with a friend (the small theater was packed). The lecturer was performing an effect and I leaned over to my friend and whispered, "Wow, did you see that?" I was in awe at some move he had just done. I was so far away that he could not possibly have heard me but he must have seen me. He stopped in the middle of his lecture and called me out saying, "Oh, you have something to say? You think you know some magic, blah, blah, blah, blah (my French isn't very good)." Well, needless to say it was a little embarrassing for me, so I apologized for the interruption. (It was rude of me to be whispering but people were oooing, awing and talking all around the room.) My apology was apparently not good enough for him and he continued with, "You think you know how the trick was accomplished, please share with everyone your little knowledge of magic." I was a little more than irritated with this guy because I had always admired him as a magician. I proceeded to hack his little trick a part piece by piece always being polite to say how great the sleeving at this point was or the deck switch at this point, etc. He just looked at me and said, "That’s right." He continued with his lecture and I sat there ****ed off at myself for getting sucked into the whole thing. At the break I apologized again for the incident citing that I got carried away in the embarrassing moment and tried to cover everything by sincerely telling him how much I admired him as a performer. It didn't matter, he snubbed me. I guess the moral if there is one would be, yes, ask in private at least if they don't want to share with you their resounding, ""NO!!"" will be just between you and them. Another performer (who I still admire) after a lecture was selling some of his items, when one of our younger members approached him with an idea/addition to one of the lecturer's effects. I was close by and overheard the comments, which went something like this: "I really liked that effect you performed, have you ever thought of adding this to the ending?" I looked over and the kid (teen age) was showing him a move. The performer without really looking at it blew him off by saying, "I designed the effect this way for a reason." The kid walked away and didn't really talk to anyone the rest of the evening. I have had very pleasant experiences with well-known and not so well known magicians and then I have often felt like an outcast. Taking from all of those experiences I have always tried to help anyone who asked me for it (within reason). Magicians are a different group and like the saying goes, "it takes all kinds." Incoherent ramblings, Jered
"The mind has exactly the same power as the hand, not merely to grasp the world, but to change it."
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Metalepsis Loyal user 232 Posts |
It sure does take all types. Discussing how a trick *might* be done is one of my favorite pastimes. I am often frustrated that other magicians see this as rude, or refuse to indulge (although this is understandable when different skill levels are present). I have taught myself a few tricks by watching others and consider myself skilled at it...though some of the techniques I will be practicing for the rest of my life;)
It is often a study in lateral thinking and/or simplicity. There is a certain amount of Occam's razor to magic. Think Simpler is something I often use as a motto when trying to recreate an effect. While we are at it...many people do not remember the specifics of an effect. I am sure many older magicians know what I mean. When an effect is described to you it is often inaccurate at best. It is odd how we can memorize complicated methods and recite them but we often fail to remember the effects...a sort of professional deformity. Since as magicians we must always know the secret while pretending it is magic, this manifests problems when we try to remember "the magic" of something we have seen. To summarize I think that focusing on experiencing the magic, or effect is a good place to start. If you can remember that then you can try to reverse engineer it later. Also stick to only a few tricks that you want to remember...trying to remember the effects of the whole performance can blur them into each other (unless of course you practice feats of memory). M |
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Most of us have been through that phase of working out methods based on watching a trick performed. Many of us move on to actively create our own routines from what we imagine as interesting... and check this by performing for laymen.
For magicians, it is a rare treat to see something that looks magical, so it seems trivial and disrespectful to vivisect other people's work for the sake of unraveling the mechanics.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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jalsing New user Allen, TX 89 Posts |
I find that if I sit back and enjoy the magic as it was intended, for entertainment, that I often miss details needed to reconstruct the trick. These details are the sleights which are performed as I fall for the misdirection. I really enjoy watching magic as much as performing, and would hate to take from my own enjoyment by watching so close as to try to "catch" the performer. I'd just assume enjoy, but of course afterwords I'm still usually wondering how he did it!
-Jason |
Paul Chosse V.I.P. 1955 - 2010 2389 Posts |
Jcigam's experiences are, unfortunately, fairly common. I've been around magic for forty years and seen it many times. I am always disgusted. Let's face it, these are magic tricks, not state secrets!
Is it rude to announce the methods a performer uses for all to hear? Sure it is. But let's consider the context. At a lecture, or a magic meeting, or a convention, that should be expected. In fact, it is practically demanded! Magicians challenge other magicians. I remember the times that I, in my youthful enthusiasm tried to be a part of by offering my "expertise", and was snubbed. It sucked! Ricky Jay was on my "B" list for a long time because of that. I've matured, and recoignize now that not everyone thinks like I do. I've let go of a lot of the ill will I carried around for a while, because it is counter-productive. Instead, I do for others what I would have liked other to do for me. By the way, some people did welcome me regardless of my magic experience, just for being me, and being interested in magic. Jack McMillen was the living embodiment of the "if you can't say something nice about someone, don't say anything at all" credo. Example: I went with Jack to a lecture by a currently hot close-up performer (this was in the late '70's). With us were a host of well-posted close-up guys, everyone of which you would recognize if I named them. The lecture was AWFUL! Afterwards a group of us (7, I think...) went to a late dinner, and of course, discussed the lecture material and the lecturer (who was not with us - that alone speaks volumes...). Jack was the "elder statesman" of the group. As the conversation went round the table, and the participants offered their opinions (to a man, we bashed the lecturer, his ability, his material, etc.), I noticed that Jack was curiously silent. Finally someone asked what Jack thought. This was his honest, heartfelt response: "I thought that BillyBob's (psydonym) choice of dress was exceptional. His suit was beautiful, everything was clean and pressed, colors coordinated, shoes shined, his personal hygiene was good, nice manicure, etc. He was the epitome of the well dressed professional." You could have heard a pin drop. The conversation quickly turned to other matters magical, and the bashing stopped for the evening. I was profoundly influenced by this. Remember, I was, at the time, a young man, and it really hit home. In many future conversations I saw Jack behave in exactly the same way. He found something good in everything he looked at, or didn't comment at all. On rare occasions, in private, and if he thought it helpful, he would be harsher in his criticism, but always one-on-one with me. I'm not sure why I posted the above except to demonstrate an attitude. Use your common sense. Get to know the guy you're interested in talking to for a few minutes, at least, before you launch into cardspeak. Develop an aquaintance at least. Then, you may be able to determine if it's wise to discuss specific material. Or, ask about the trick in a general way, let him know you're interested. Then he may volunteer the very things you are thinking. At least, once the topic is open, it makes sense for you to mention them. And if you think it inappropraite, for whatever reason, then wait until later to talk things over with your friends. There are quite a few younger guys who will remember the times I opened the doors to "inner circle" sessions for them. I didn't do it to be a big shot, I did it because that is the way I would have liked to be treated when I was trying to learn. Magic is like anything else, there are certain social niceties to be observed. Just because you share a common interest doesn't mean that you have the right to everything a guy knows! At the same time, I can always handle difficult situations without being rude. Sinking to a lower level because you percieve someone's behaviour to be out of line only diminishes your own status, as far as I'm concerned. Every time I've lost my temper, I've paid the price, if not publically, privately, because I always end up feeling badly about my own behavior. Remember this, the guy who berated jcigam so publically revealed far more about himself that night than he did about jcigam... I'm rambling now, and I want to answer the original post too, so I'm going to end this and write a more succinct answer in another post... Best, PSC Posted: Jun 15, 2004 12:32pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On 2004-06-15 07:38, Metalepsis wrote: Sometimes I want to ask a professional privately if a particular move or method is part of their show, but I never do as I suspect they would think it rude. Any advice on this front? M -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Try developing a relationship first. Asking someone how they did a trick when you don't even know them is rude. Let's face it, you're not going to collapse if you don't know the secret to a trick. If you try to develop a relationship you may gain something much more valuable than tricks - a friend. And if you don't, then trust me, the performer in question would probably not have answered your magic question anyway! I "met" many a famous magician via the Post Office. And I wrote about all kinds of things before I asked about secrets. What kind of books do you read? How old were you when you started doing Magic? Things like that open a dialogue that can lead to other things. And let's face it, performers are only human, in fact more human, in some ways. They are all about thier egos, and an appreciative audience member lets them know thier work is valued. I know I respond well to this, and so do most performers. Give it a try... Best, PSC
"You can't steal a gift..." Dizzy Gillespie
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Kenardo1 New user 72 Posts |
Here is a short story some of you may find interesting. In or about 1975 I was living down South and went to one of my first magic conventions: SEAM in Macon, Georgia. I sort of stood out and knew nobody, and I was a Yankee. So I started to talk to the friendly security guard of the dealers room. He knew a lot about magic and was a heck of a nice guy; as a matter of fact when I remet him again a year later he made sure I met a lot of people. Although I only met him twice, I have never forgotten him and his kindness. That man was Bob Carver - the inventor of the Professor's Nightmare.
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Metalepsis Loyal user 232 Posts |
Thanks pchosse,
This reinvigorates me. Mostly, the things you wrote were things I have thought to myself, but one thing stands out as good advice... "If you try to develop a relationship you may gain something much more valuable than tricks - a friend." Ok so how about some discussion about the other aspect of my question: How do you steal the technique? Of course you keep it quiet, and don't shout the secrets to the rafters...but let's face it, there is an art to learning when you shouldn't be. In fact, this cuts both ways. I will place a young magician friend I quite like at the "wrong" angle so that everyone else sees a great trick and he/she spots one part of the trick. In fact I revel in them coming back months later with the moves I "revealed by accident" polished to a high sheen. So any advice on how to steal the technique? M PS nice sig... |
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