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pegasus Eternal Order United Kingdom 10537 Posts |
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On May 3, 2021, videoman wrote: If you’re happy using a book of Pi that isn’t actually Pi then crack on. Be my guest. |
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videoman Inner circle 6732 Posts |
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On May 4, 2021, pegasus wrote: Many props in magic are not what they appear (or claim) to be. That’s certainly not unusual. I’m not concerned about being busted on that. I don’t run with that smart of a crowd. 😃 Although even amongst mathematicians, most have better things to do than memorize Pi. |
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cardistry master Special user 761 Posts |
The Jerx posted a good routine.
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pegasus Eternal Order United Kingdom 10537 Posts |
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On May 4, 2021, videoman wrote: I’d much prefer this if you didn’t have to use an app / website in order to gain the required info. I was hoping it was an ‘in the head quick solve’ to direct them to the target page, position. I reckon this could be achieved. We just need a Richard Feynman genius type person to produce it. |
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Mark_Chandaue Inner circle Essex UK 4187 Posts |
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On May 4, 2021, pegasus wrote: Considering I am happy using a complete works of Shakespeare that isn’t the complete works of Shakespeare and a Pride and Prejudice that isn’t Pride and Prejudice, an age of innocence that isn’t age of innocence. That’s before I get into my sharpie that isn’t a sharpie, my index cards that aren’t index cards, my card box that isn’t a card box, my pebble that isn’t a pebble. Dare I say it even the occasional spectator who isn’t actually a spectator. Why would I care about a pi book that nobody is going to see other than the participant who will look at a page and a line but is unlikely to do the mental arithmetic required to work out which digits of pi are on page 76, line 6 14 characters in of this book so that later he can google Pi to see if his pin really does fall at that position. This of course assumes that I am not often going to select a spectator who happens to have memorised Pi to 50,000 Digits and is quick enough to count the number of digits per line and the number of lines per page. On that basis I am more than happy to use a book off Pi that isn’t actually Pi. Mark |
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kissdadookie Inner circle 4275 Posts |
The Jerx had some very good thoughts on how this can be used in a way which makes the experience for the spectator more coherent. It also allows for the performer to nip it in the bud in regards to things like the spectator making a obvious assumption that perhaps there's something special about the book rather than a feat of true memorization.
Overall though, I don't necessarily think that the book itself is the issue with this as presented in the demo, etc. It's more of a few presentational elements could be better constructed as to make this both a more logical and coherent experience as well as adding in the necessary layer so that the performer isn't funneling the audience down to obvious conclusions (obvious conclusions as in if they are not in the mindset that magic is real, which many will likely be in the mindset that magic is in fact not real, then that only leaves one plausible solution for how you did what you did). As Andy points out, if you were to truly have memorized Pi, you would just call out the numbers and see how far you get. The book would only be there for a spectator to follow along and confirm. The way of demonstrating your memorization skills here essentially makes no sense because the instinctual understanding of what such a demonstration of memorization would be is so different from what you actually do here instead. This creates a incongruence which hurts the concept and presentation you are trying to demonstrate here. |
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Mark_Chandaue Inner circle Essex UK 4187 Posts |
That all depends on what you are trying to demonstrate. In my case I am trying to demonstrate that I know their pin without sharing their pin with the entire audience. The book and even Pi is merely the vehicle for that revelation.
Were I attempting to demonstrate that I have memorised Pi I would likely perform Vincent’s routine. Mark |
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kissdadookie Inner circle 4275 Posts |
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On May 4, 2021, Mark_Chandaue wrote: I agree, I think Andy on the Jerx pretty much agrees with it as well. The key has been in how the effect is presented in this instance rather than the props being used. Some folks have been dismissive about this simply based on the prop being used and thus overlooking something that can be very powerful. At least that's my take on this. |
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pegasus Eternal Order United Kingdom 10537 Posts |
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On May 4, 2021, Mark_Chandaue wrote: But even I realised that not every 4 digit number will be represented within the first 10000 digits of pi. So, with that logic you wouldn’t perform such an effect. |
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Mark_Chandaue Inner circle Essex UK 4187 Posts |
Well as we are working with 50,000 digits of pi rather than 10,000 and only one four digit code rather than all 10,000 it is entirely reasonable that those 4 digits could be somewhere in the first 50,000 digits of pi. In fact statistically speaking there is more chance of a single 4 digit code being amongst those 50,000 digits than it not being there.
Add to that the particular four digit code is only known to one spectator who is somewhat disinclined to share it with the wider audience there is no way to confirm or deny whether the pin is truly in the first 50,000 digits or not. The participant however can confirm that you have correctly identified his pin code, likely by reacting strongly to its presence at the location you pointed them to. Mark |
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cardistry master Special user 761 Posts |
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On May 4, 2021, Mark_Chandaue wrote: I think the main issue is there is no actual benefit to the effect to use a fake pi. But I agree with you I don't really think it would be an issue. You can also find out the position of any number in pi which isn't possible with other books. Like I said I like the idea and am excited to use it but I think the fact it is a fake pi is a concern for a few reasons. |
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Mark_Chandaue Inner circle Essex UK 4187 Posts |
There is indeed a benefit to the effect to use a fake pi. Pi gives a book with 50,000 digits a logical reason to exist. To use the real Pi we would potentially need the first 500,000 decimals which would make for a very fat book. Sure an app could be created that located the pin in the real pi but then we would have to ask the participant to google pi to check if his pin is there. Not only would that not be theatrically pleasing but the entire audience could also google it learning the participants pin in the process and as a result you may as well simply revealed the pin by writing it in big digits on an art pad for the entire audience to see.
The real strength of this is that it provides an ethical way to reveal a participants pin in a theatrical way. One would also expect a strong reaction from the participant when he sees his secret pin right there in the place that you directed him to thus proving that you are able to read his most secret thoughts without compromising the security of his data. Mark |
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Myke Phillips Inner circle Myke Phillips 1213 Posts |
Some people become paralysed because of this strange nitpick thinking. Constantly analysing every effect to find any excuse not to perform. Putting their own limitations on others.
Worried about someone fingering out it’s not Pi? Get the !@#$ out of here. |
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godan65 New user 37 Posts |
And even if there was somebody to figure out that this is not PI (which I highly doubt)-
it is still highly amazing to find the position of the 4 digit number in a number with 50.000 digits ! Bought it and looking forward to it |
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Lonnie_Lyerla Special user 508 Posts |
I’m in. Bought mine.
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JanForster Inner circle Germany ... when not traveling... 4190 Posts |
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On May 4, 2021, Mark_Chandaue wrote: Absolutely... And as I pointed out before, you could still do almost the same with Vincent's book which I perform (as memory plot) if the PIN would be a birth date, easy to justify... Still, David Penn's book is very good. And with little thought you can use it also for a memo demonstration plus discretely delivering a PIN which you "got" by mind reading. Think of iTHUMP... force a big number (built by multiplying any four digit number and a two digit number and the PIN), tell them where in the book the number "523,783,175" (e. g.) is, then go to mind reading... then tell them where to look up there PIN... so many possibilities... Jan
Jan Forster
www.janforster.de |
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts |
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On May 5, 2021, JanForster wrote: Great thinking as ever Jan! |
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JanForster Inner circle Germany ... when not traveling... 4190 Posts |
I will post soon some remarks, ideas, methods and presentational approaches "downstairs"... so I can talk openly... Jan
Jan Forster
www.janforster.de |
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ianmitchell New user 7 Posts |
Firstly, the book and overall idea is simply brilliant. I cannot, and will not, knock David Penn for the genius of a effect but...
this is so frustrating for all Android phone users, like myself, who will miss out on so much of this effects full potential. 99% of the great associated apps will not work for Android users. The companion app 'Pi Revelations' isn't available on the Google Play store! This companion app links Inject and more great apps that enhance this great product. I own a Samsung Note, and the great Inject app, and am hugely disappointed that there wasn't full disclosure of the non compatabilty with Android phone users in the advertising from the start. Honesty & openness is huge for me and I'd really appreciate a simple 'not currently fully compatible with Android' would've been hugely appreciated. Even the brilliant 'Toxic Force' calculator idea from Michael Murray or 'peek' (both pretty essential to the basic idea) from the calculation cannot be performed on an Android calculator! Like I said from the start, absolutely brilliant if you own an iphone but so, so, so frustrating if you own an Android phone as you'll only get about 1% of its full potential. Are there any plans for the companion app etc to made available for non iphone users? Transparency please. |
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Rob.m Loyal user 263 Posts |
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On May 8, 2021, ianmitchell wrote: I also have a samsung phone and was also disappointed in the available apps for the android phone. i have found the best app to use with a android phone for Pi revelations is Cipher from ellusionist and its just £15,There is so much more you can do with it then just using it for Pi revelations. |
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