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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
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On Jun 7, 2021, ringmaster wrote: No science on this yet? Sure there is. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01442-9 PLUS we have an entire history of work on viruses and what happens. There is a LOT of science actually.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
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On Jun 7, 2021, Dannydoyle wrote: And there is also a lot of science to the contrary. From the vary same page, though these days that doesn’t necessarily mean it is actually their article. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00071-6 Antibodies only lasting months. Reinfections are happening. Heck, people with full vaccinations are turning up with Covid. There is a lot of conflicting information and nothing definitive like you would see from studies taken over years. Note given that The link Danny made is more current, but these days that means little as to accuracy. We are just running on too short of notice. |
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NicholasD25 Veteran user 380 Posts |
All of the verbiage makes me a little dizzy sometimes, so I’ll make it simple. I’m 75 and I got the vaccine as soon as it became available because I trust it. Now , I’m back to a normal, mostly maskless life going to the gym, Dunkin Donuts, etc. and I’m not looking back.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
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On Jun 8, 2021, Tom Cutts wrote: Nothing contradicts the science we have developed for decades. Nothing. It may keep developing, which incidentally is how science works and is good. Much of the conflicting information (I'd call it misinformation.) is because this whole situation was made political. There is actually quite little conflict within the actual science. Most of the conflicting reports stems from how to handle it. "Follow the science" and schools should have probably never been closed. Certainly not for so long. And on and on. It is now out of the hands of scientists (One who lied intentionally about masks by the way.) And our overlords are in charge.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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KungFuMagic Regular user 167 Posts |
It seems incentives are being used to attract people to the vaccine. Pure and simple. Lots of people haves lots of varying reasons for waiting or plain out avoiding the vaccine. "Risk of dying" is a narrative that has been overplayed in public/civilian rhetoric so much and so inflammatory that it has lost any real meaning. Ultimately, otherwise healthy people have a statistically low chance of severe syndrome-to-death. It's not incentive enough to motivate the cautious or the skeptical .... it is pretty clearly playing out in the vaccination rates. I say all this as a supporter of the vaccination program.
Hopefully incentives will attract another band of people to the injections. The knowledge base of the epidemiologists has been growing/changing over the last 6 months since the vaccines started ... as the understanding of post-vaccine activity of this virus stabilizes, it should give more people confidence to get it. I mean, it went from immunization, to likely immunization, to likely need boosters like flu shot. It could make people wary.
Nick Sasso
part-time Samurai conjurer |
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magicfish Inner circle 7004 Posts |
Lots of changes going on in Canada. All the people who rushed to get the Astrazenica vaccine couldn't get their second shot because the government banned it. Can you imagine you and your family getting injected with something they ban the very next day?
Then they had to figure out if it was safe to mix and match. Now there are millions of doses they're trying to peddle. Then they said its ok to take it again. Its crazy. At my first test they swabbed right into my head. On the next one, just the nostrils. I asked why. She said, we learned more so we don't need to go that far up anymore. They're learning more about swabbing, testing, and vaccines every day. ...I think I'll wait till the dust settles a bit. Too many different ingredients, too little knowledge. I'm going to follow the science and wait. |
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magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 2962 Posts |
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On Jun 9, 2021, R.S. wrote: Astrazeneca and Johnson and Johnson vaccines have been shown to be unsafe. The Johnson and Johnson trials included a case of the now widely reported VITT, indicating the rate of this severe and difficult to treat-even for "first world countries"- syndrome was much higher than the early stated "one in a million". My twin sister and I get our first Pfizer shot tomorrow afternoon. |
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RNK Inner circle 7491 Posts |
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On Jun 9, 2021, magicfish wrote: Exactly...If they were 100% safe and effective then the FDA would officially approve it but they aren't and wont because they know there is still uncertainty with them.
Check out Bafflingbob.com
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magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 2962 Posts |
"'it makes sense to pause Astrazeneca because the risk of severe outcomes with VITT shouldn't be underestimated.'"
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/o.......6022545 |
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 184 Posts |
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On Jun 9, 2021, magicalaurie wrote: I am not seeing anything that indicates any of the vaccines are unsafe among the general population of adults. Of course, as with any medication or drug (even aspirin) there are warnings for people with allergic reactions, underlying conditions, etc. Below are a few recent links. Unless there is some breaking news about these vaccines, I wouldn’t hesitate to get them (unless of course I have some risk factor). The last link is from yesterday and it describes the incidence of VITT as “extremely rare.” Good for you that you’ll be getting your Pfizer shot tomorrow. I had both pfizer shots and it was pfantastic. https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsuppor......-vaccine https://www2.hse.ie/screening-and-vaccin....../safety/ https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nco......sen.html https://www.acc.org/latest-in-cardiology......vaccines Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 184 Posts |
From Factcheck.org:
https://www.factcheck.org/2021/05/the-wu......reement/ This is not a cut-and-dry issue. Much is subject to interpretations and term definitions. And again, I think that we need to be careful about inferring motives and assigning blame. Full context is important. And all of it is complicated by years of research under different administrations and policies, an understanding of the scientific goals, and the relationships of the various organizations involved. Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 2962 Posts |
Regarding VITT:
"though that ratio is below one in 20,000 in Scandinavia." And Ron, especially key:"There are no known confirmed risk factors for VITT," People can't be screened out for this. That is what makes current administration of Astrazeneca and the Janssen Johnson & Johnson vaccine, in my opinion, unethical. https://www.macleans.ca/news/can-astraze......d-clots/ |
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 184 Posts |
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On Jun 9, 2021, magicalaurie wrote: Thanks for the link, Laurie. To me what it comes down to is that you have a vaccine with known benefits and known extremely rare effects (which by the way, are treatable in most cases). As long as the public is well-informed about the risks/benefits then I don’t see what’s unethical about it. People can decide for themselves. Now, if there were hazards that were intentionally being kept from the public, then administration of the vaccine would clearly be unethical. Let us know how your pfizer shot goes today. I'm sure it will be pfine. Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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On Jun 9, 2021, R.S. wrote: The full context is a world filled with lethal weapons that governments including our own have not hesitated to use. When governments call for a total ban on research and usage, then we can stop "inferring motives." You're talking like the guy who brings a gun to a felony and then complains, yeah, but he didn't really mean to use it. Stop the funding for these insane weapons that cannot be controlled no matter what anyone thinks.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
As for funding this stuff, wow. What can be said? It should be a crime against humanity shouldn't it?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 2962 Posts |
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On Jun 10, 2021, R.S. wrote: How can the public give informed consent if the information keeps changing? ie. incidence rate, especially. Those who sign up for 1 in a million, or 1 in 100,000 have gotten 1 in 55,000 and 1 in 20,000. Incidents ranging from treatable to death. Incident windows stated to be 1 to 28 days, but may be as wide as 1 to 48 days, etc. A consent form will waive liability for all effects, but most lay individuals aren't fully informed of this fact, I'd say. And when there are vaccines available that don't pose these risks, distributing Astra Zeneca and Janssen Johnson & Johnson, which are also apparently significantly less effective, is unethical, in my opinion. I think the main reason they have been promoted and distributed is because they are cheaper. Insult to injury, in my view. Many of the links you provided emphasize noting that Astra Zeneca is NOT available in the U.S.A. |
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KungFuMagic Regular user 167 Posts |
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On Jun 9, 2021, RNK wrote: To push back on this with a little simpler reasoning .... FDA won't give regular "official" approval until all the protocols and processes of that approval have been completed. There are various other sorts of avenues created for circumstances ... but the full monte is reserved pretty much for going the full monte. I argue this is a much more likely reason for pending "officially approve" than other claims that have been made. I get it. All vaccines through history have resistance and fear and updated knowledge through time. Vaccines given in 1950 and 2021 for same infectious diseases are different. Polio changed kinda quick at one point when they hit a sweet spot for advancing research. It happens, has happened, and will continue to happen. Because science and medicine are constantly finding new information ... and less because of government conspiracies and microchips. I will say I get better cellular reception since I got my vaccine. LOL
Nick Sasso
part-time Samurai conjurer |
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 184 Posts |
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On Jun 10, 2021, landmark wrote: I agree that weapons of mass destruction are a problem in this world. The world would absolutely be a better place without them. But I doubt there are any easy solutions. The genie is out of the bottle and I don’t know what it would take to rectify the situation. Sure we can stop funding, but will other nations comply? Anyway, we’re getting a bit off topic and frankly, the “eliminate all lethal weapons in the world” discussion is above my pay grade. Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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NicholasD25 Veteran user 380 Posts |
It seems to me that the FDA wouldn’t have issued an emergency use authorization for say, Moderna if they were not sure that the vaccine was safe and effective. I’m not remotely familiar with the process, but I imagine that “official approval” requires time consuming steps that were safely and temporarily circumvented.
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 184 Posts |
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On Jun 10, 2021, magicalaurie wrote: True, but we can’t give consent for what tomorrow’s data may be – we can only give consent for what we currently know. Unfortunately I don’t see a way around that. As long as the vaccine companies are making reasonable efforts at being transparent and releasing current data, then it’s on the individual to decide what level of ambiguity they are comfortable with. And let’s not forget, there’s a disease out there with far more sobering statistics of its own. So it’s not like there’s all risk and no gain in getting vaccinated. From what I understand, the Astrazeneca and J&J vaccines are more effective than the seasonal flu vaccine (although not as effective as Pfizer and Moderna). I don’t know, but I suppose the calculation was that it’s better to get more people vaccinated quickly by using all vaccines available than to limit the population to just two vaccines, allowing covid time to spread further. To me that sounds like a plausible explanation for promoting them. Also from what I understand, Astrazeneca and J&J are indeed cheaper, but that’s because they are the easiest to transport and store. Anyway, if people simply don’t want Astrazeneca or J&J then they can certainly wait to get the other vaccines. Or none at all. It’s up to them. Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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