What is a good second deal? Before we talk about this, we have to discuss about the important points for good second deal. In my opinion, the main points of the second deal is
1. Naturalness
2. Deceptiveness
3. ERDNASE(LMAO)

So first we need to talk about what is natural moves. I think the most natural way to deal the card is do what others do. Everyone have different hands but I think it can't make other players to understand using erdnase or straddle grip and get the money on the biggest pot in the night. And also it's connected with deceptiveness. I think the more you do like other players the more it will become deceptive. So I think front push off second is the best way to do because it uses a full grip and you can lift your thumb if you practice really really a lot(I can't but I heard it is possible).
But a week ago I had a really interesting story from Joe(student of artanis and scott). He said scott's way to do the second is the most superior way to do. So I asked him "WHY". And he simply said "Because it's impossible to see". But I got the question on my head. "How could the invisible seconds can be the best way to do?" so I JUST WANTED TO ASK YOU GUYS THAT INVISIBLE SECONDS CAN BE THE BEST WAY TO DO SECONDS"
Im not saying that Scott sucks. I know he is one of the legendary second dealer and one of the best in the gambling world. About the century ago(Even it was just 70 years ago probably I just used the word century).

My opinion on scott's seconds:
1, It's just a demo deal. it's just a demo deal because no one deals the card without moving thumb or putting the thumb on the side of the deck. And even they don't bevel the card that much.
2. It's not the best way to deal the seconds. it might be good in the past time but things changed and in my personal opinion, there is no place for old legends(Scott, Artanis or etc...).
3. Im not a big fan of Erdnase but I think the first one in his book is one of the best way to deal the seconds. I do believe that the master second dealers never miss his cards and like some well trained second dealer, they can use deceptive punch deal with their push off second deal either.

Im writing it little fast so sorry for typo if I made.. and some parts are my thought and some are personal experiences.
And it looks like some kind of criticism on Scott but I do believe that he was one of the best! Just in my eyes, so called "EXPOSED BLUFFS" like Steve Forte or Jason England and AMCD(really some call them like this) are the best. AMCD does the best push off second deal I've ever seen!! and Mr. England does the BEST RHYTHM especially when he sails the cards!!!
And lastly... Mr. Forte even lifts his thumb during dealing a second OMG(I probably saw it from 52 or GPS.. probably)

Thanks for reading!!!

The best push offs I have ever seen where from SF/Mr Z with Arnold right behind them. Even. master second dealers miss on occasion, as rare as it might be. I wonder how AMCD would think about him being an "exposer"....

Oh no offense on him or other experts!
Just there are people who used word like that to humiliate people who post or make a video of their skills (Like Amcd and Forte and etc). And they usually like to say "the real deal is--".
But we all know that experts like Arnold is way much better than them so just little joke on them with their favorite words "Exposed Bluffs"
Again no offense on them but if you feel uncomfortable then I'm really sorry to say like that.

Btw.. who is SF and Mr Z..? The only Z I know is Zee from sensmind..

I mean I saw him few times on Forum but I found almost nothing of them

There is no Mr. Z, he's a figment of the imagination.

Oh.. I'm so confused

Mr Z exists only when you aren't looking directly at him. He is the noise of one hand mucking. The shadow behind the cooler. A whisper on the wind.

SF is Steve Forte. Z used to post a lot in here, very very good. Nice guy as well

Aaa!! Steve Forte.. another legend. But sadly I've never seen him doing some moves except on 52 and G.P.S series but he was really great too!!

Hope I can see Mr.Z's seconds either ( it will be very pleasure

You wont be seeing anything from Z, but I cant speak for Him .

Get Fortes "gambling sleight of hand" books

From what I've heard, here ya go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ulfbZ3aCnA&t=757s

P!

Hi, it's Min again
@5ggg ohh I see! And I already got his book and it was amazing!! But still thank you for recommending!!

@Ado hmm Daniel Roy is one of the greatest magician I've ever seen but the so called real mechanic's second didn't reach my expectation sadly Still it is so so good but I think it's not his go to seconds. Because in my eyes, techniques were.. umm too demonstrative. It's like watching Scott's techniques who is used to call the world best deuce man or second dealer. But still thank you for the video, I appreciate it

did you ever think the reason why it looked like a demonstration is because it was a demonstration?? Also, where did you see walter scott dealing seconds?? ALso, how about you show us your seconds and make it not look "demonstrative"..

If you clicked the link - the seconds that are immediately played are not in the hands of Daniel Roy. I'm not sure if you thought the guy at the pinpoint was Roy or not.

Also - if you have the books, I doubt that you have covered that book from front to back (though I may be wrong), so I would recommend going back to the book and taking your time with the pages.

There is a video of Walter Scott dealing seconds, bottoms and other card moves. However, I doubt Min has watched the video as it is not one that is so easily accessible. But yes I do agree with you and would like know how Min defines a 'Demonstration / Demonstrative work'.

Hi!
First, thank you for sharing your opinions!

So let's start with
@iamslow
well okay maybe my comment was too aggressive. Sorry for that, didn't meant to say like that. Just I was expected something close to real instead of demonstrative. And friend of mine showed me a Scott doing seconds and bottoms. (He is Scott's student's student's friend, kinda complex but anyway) It was really old and dark but still I can see his seconds and just thought like that. And also you were here longer than me so I think you can understand what I was trying to explain. And you said "then why don't you show your seconds which is not demonstrative", and actually I wanted to post but I didn't because I still think my seconds are just not bad seconds instead of good seconds so that'y why I didn't post me doing seconds. But I still believe that there is no problem to share my thoughts.

Now let's move on to
@Skewed
I knew it's not a Roy but he introduced him as a card cheat so I was expecting some real works from actual card cheat. Well my misunderstand the situation maybe.
And umm yeah I tried to read every sections but some were not my interest so I skip some but I read the almost every second deal section but thank you for advise! I will go back to that masterpiece again! Also yeah I saw his video, just probably 2 mins long. Well it was kinda impressive that he really used microscopic briefs but still.. not my type.

So yeah now the main point.. how did I define the word demonstrative work. Before I go any further, I just want to make clear that it is my PERSONAL OPINION.
The demonstrative work I mean is work something can't get be used on the table. Like too different way to deal the cards, too loud sounds or maybe too big moving hands. I don't play cards for money always and also I just play in my country(Korea) so maybe some of the moves will get the money or can be used if he use it for once on the biggest pot. But I just want to be the best, not a one night card cheat so I just call them in that way. Maybe there are huge differences between how you guys define that word and I do. Hmm.. and if the way I use that word is completely wrong, then I have to change the way I use!
So it will be so nice to know how you and other guys define that word if you use it.

SUM of the word Demonstrative
-Too flush
-Too unusual


Lastly, maybe I'm repeating some old subjects which was already discussed for over decades. But I just want to share my opinions and want to know you guys opinions because I want this forum will get bigger like before again. So many experts and old timers were already passed or left... but I'm sure if we try, we can make this place like before again. (Actually I like to discuss so that's also the reason why I'm posting the similar topics again ).

Thank you for reading, sorry for my bad English but anyway Have a nice day(pots) you all!

Min Frank (kiddo who wanna be the best run up man someday... like AMCD.. but also like wanna know about DOC and Rod The Hop.. ) (Also the kiddo who is reading old posts from DOC and realized almost every video on his posts were deleted or became private... but never stop to find) (also 17 now who realized his hands are really small.. 17.5 CM.. and crazy on this kind of subject and think about it for 24 hrs and even dream of meeting DOC in the dream and teaching me how to do the mucks lol)!!

Lastly...
I mean his seconds are really great still on my eyes. There is no doubt on that