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magicfish Inner circle 7117 Posts 
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On Feb 14, 2022, jkr wrote: You're very welcome Jacob. I learned it long ago from Kaufman's The Secrets of Bro. John Hamman. An excellent book. |
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3159 Posts
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On Feb 15, 2022, magicfish wrote: That's not an opinion. That's either a correct or incorrect statement -- either that DL belongs to Hamman or it doesn't. If it's an incorrect statement then I'm sure Behr will be happy to have that proven to him so that he can correct the entry. Furthermore, he cites as justification for that statement Richard Kaufman's "Column 1". If a mistake lies in that column then that error isn't Denis's, it's Richard's. And, again, if you've got access to the resource that proves this, certainly Denis would be happy to have that shown to him. |
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magicfish Inner circle 7117 Posts
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On Feb 15, 2022, The Burnaby Kid wrote: Incorrect. As I have already stated, in my opinion, Denis Behr's entry goes beyond archiving the contents of the book. He lists Bro. Hamman as the creator of Lorayne's Double from a 4 Card Packet. Is it a case of independent invention? Is Lorayne's technique different than Hamman's. Its a great discussion to have. Proper crediting is important. Are you or is Denis Behr insinuating that Mr. Lorayne should've credited Hamman? And is Denis "fixing that for us" by including Hammans name in a Quantum Leaps entry? Tortuga is right. Others who don't have the library, or time, or money, and are limited in their own research may take Denis' entry as gospel. Because crediting is so important, its a huge responsibility to be accurate. You do you. I like the website- it comes in handy when I'm on the road. But I would prefer it as a pure archive that's all. Onward. |
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts
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One thing we seem to agree on is that crediting is important. if anyone needs a reminder as to why, they can find the free publication from Harapan Ong, which is extremely well done. Here is one place you can get it.
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/ebooks......d%20more.
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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magicfish Inner circle 7117 Posts
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Great, thanks!
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3159 Posts
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On Feb 15, 2022, magicfish wrote: Yeah yeah, nice try. The ONE thing I'm getting at is that if you're going to criticize somebody's hard work, at least make an effort to be accurate with that criticism. People who put that kind of diligent effort into a lifelong project deserve better than Peanut Gallery sniping. |
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jkr Regular user Mn 149 Posts
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On Feb 15, 2022, magicfish wrote: Thanks for the information, I appreciate it! Jacob |
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magicfish Inner circle 7117 Posts
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On Feb 15, 2022, The Burnaby Kid wrote: Which you have proven yourself to be here time and again. I have the same expectations of accuracy from Denis Behr. Hence my critique. If I'm inaccurate, it affects few. If Denis is inaccurate, it can and will affect many. To safeguard against this, his archive, which I have praised, which you choose to ignore, should be just that- an archive. If you continue personally attacking me, or being dishonest about my intentions, I will withdraw from what has been, up until your last post, a respectful debate. |
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magicfish Inner circle 7117 Posts
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On Feb 15, 2022, The Burnaby Kid wrote: Nobody said there was a mistake in Richard's column. Nice try though. Sniping indeed. |
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magicfish Inner circle 7117 Posts
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Ok guys lets get back to doubles!
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magicfish Inner circle 7117 Posts
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On Feb 15, 2022, jkr wrote: My pleasure. Positive comments like yours make it all worth while. Perhaps I'll post a few more here from some different books. |
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Denis Behr Special user Germany 706 Posts
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Magicfish seems concerned with Lorayne's legacy and almost every time he criticises the Archive, it's usually regarding one of his publications where he opines damage is done by not giving him enough credit.
In this case, Kaufman clearly says that the technique is Hamman's in his column, hence I updated the entry accordingly with a reference where the information comes from. (The alternative would be no credit, not Lorayne's name. He doesn't actually claim it in the text, just says that that's "how I do it", not whom it is from. I filled in this information, including a reference where it comes from.) Everyone can look it up and choose to believe it or not. The site can only be a starting point for research. Could this entry be handled in a different or better way? Probably. And one can always send a well-reasoned suggestion or correction for any entry on the site. Of course, this specific technique was published earlier by Fulves in Epilogue. |
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts
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On Feb 16, 2022, Denis Behr wrote: Denis, thanks for responding personally! Since a lot of the recent comments are about conjuringarchive.com it is only appropriate. In Best of Friends III Harry Lorayne actually provides two handlings for the double from a small packet. He discusses 4 cards and 5 cards and then gives additional handling tips regarding using a buckle, etc. He says he had previously published one of the handlings and also explained it in a video. He doesn't list the name of the first book nor does he say which video. So I think any discussion on this needs to not only understand all of the individual instances of publication and also the fact that in at least BOF III, Harry covers two versions plus extra advice. So which "version" are we talking about? Isn't that important too, to identify which of the two techniques Harry detailed? Are both thought to be of someone else's provenance? As for Magicfish, he can speak for himself, but I can tell you that I do come to Harry's defense at times. The reason is I think he is unfairly targeted by some. Nobody is perfect and I know that Mr. Lorayne can be guilty of repetition about "the good stuff", but can't we just look the other way? Given his age and his contributions to magic, I think it is the appropriate thing to do. Again, thanks for chiming in Denis, it was helpful. One thing you mentioned was Karl Fulves publication, 'Epilogue'. Your site lists 'No Get-Ready Double Lift', Special #5, 1976 page 305. Is that the one that you were talking about? I assume Fulves claimed it as original? I don't own the publication so can't verify, so which of the two techniques in BOF III is it most similar to? Thanks for hosting such a helpful resource for our community!
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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KevinWisch Loyal user 206 Posts
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This thread seems to have evolved into discussing proper credit given for moves. I offer the following insight: I know my father finds Denis' website to be of help during research, but it cannot be considered an "exhaustive" list of moves or credit (for the DL or any other move). For instance, I may have missed it, but I see no entries at all for the Wisch-Wedge DL (both pull off and push off), The Wisch Fold, The Mexi-coin Turnover, the Handy Zarrow, The Flip-Flam move, Undermine, and many other Bill Wisch original moves. These moves have all appeared in some form of media or another and are all original moves that my father has done for years, but there are currently no entries for them in the archive.
My point? Denis' site is great, but not exhaustive. And no one should expect it to be. That said, Denis- how might we go about crediting the above moves properly on your site? I will send you a DM but I know my father would be thrilled to receive proper credit for many moves that are not currently listed. |
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Einmaliger Regular user Germany 200 Posts
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On Feb 16, 2022, KevinWisch wrote: Conjuringarchive is not supposed to be a list of moves, but an archive of magic books. There is one publication by Bill Wisch listed. Judging from Bill Wisch's website, he seems to have mostly published DVDs, which do not belong in the archive. |
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KevinWisch Loyal user 206 Posts
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On Feb 16, 2022, Einmaliger wrote: Further reason then as to why people complaining about "credit" is ridiculous and unfounded. There are quite a few of my father's publications that are not on the site from the 70s on upward that are extremely well known in the magic community. Wisches 1, Wisches 2, Best Wisches, Sleightly Out of My Mind, etc etc. That said, just because a move wasn't in a book, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, correct? |
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Denis Behr Special user Germany 706 Posts
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I have only two more of Bill Wisch's notes in my collection and went ahead and added those: https://www.conjuringarchive.com/books/artist/1325
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KevinWisch Loyal user 206 Posts
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On Feb 16, 2022, Denis Behr wrote: Thank you so much Denis for adding those! It is truly appreciated. My dad says "thank you!" as well. |
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magicfish Inner circle 7117 Posts
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On Feb 16, 2022, Denis Behr wrote: Thanks for the clarification Denis. I have the Hardbound Epilogue. I'll use your archive to search it and then I can go straight to the item when I get home. Thanks for your input on this, and of course, your great website. |
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Richard Kaufman Inner circle 2532 Posts
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I haven't read all of this thread, but the technique for doing this type of Double Lift from a packet is actually Tenkai's, something I did not know when writing the Hamman book. BUT, Hamman is the first person I know of who did this with a packet where multiple cards had to be held back by the left fingers so that the thumb ends up pushing only a double card by the time you get to the Lift.
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| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » Eugene Burger agreed that the Double Lift is at best a feeble device, at worst an abomination. (36 Likes) | ||||||||||
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Posted: Feb 15, 2022 04:28 pm 
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