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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Grand illusion » » HEAD SLICER (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

boney
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Rob
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I would like to know where i can get hold of the special costume that is used in the head slicer illusion, similar to tim kole and jenny lynns cutting head and moving to one side, I have looked everywhere , is it specially made for the illusion

does any body have any idears of how to improve on this illusion buy going in to the illusion wearing normal clothes

ROB
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knightmagic98
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Frisco, TX
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Rob,

you should know first of all, that this particular illusion was created by Andre Kole. Secondly, if you are planning to knock it off and make one on your own, this illusion was invented by Andre kole. Finally, if you want to do this illusion, you should contact the creator, who incidentally is, Andre Kole

Hope that helps!
knightmagic98
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Rob,

you should know first of all, that this particular illusion was created by Andre Kole. Secondly, if you are planning to knock it off and make one on your own, this illusion was invented by Andre kole. Finally, if you want to do this illusion, you should contact the creator, who incidentally is, Andre Kole

Hope that helps!
reedrc
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If you need an ORIGINAL illusion to take someone's head off let us know, but I'd agree to cantact Andre Kole. Andre's a great guy, very nice, but when it comes to protecting HIS IDEAS he will take it to the full extent of the law. So be original you'll go MUCH farther.....
Kind Regards

Ryan C. Reed
Founder, Illusion Entertainment

designer, director, theatrical consultant, digital wizard, magic impresario, wonder aficionado, Illusioneer & dream architect.

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boney
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Rob
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I have seen this illusion performed by Carl de Rome and Merete but the illusion is MADE different very simple but its the costume again

Althouh it is made different would they still have had to get performace rights

see link to the illusion slide show

http://www.cdrmagic.com/slide_shows/slide1.htm

Rob

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knightmagic98
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Quote:
On 2002-07-31 06:06, boney wrote:
I have seen this illusion performed by Carl de Rome and Merete but the illusion is MADE different very simple but its the costume again

Althouh it is made different would they still have had to get performace rights

see link to the illusion slide show

http://www.cdrmagic.com/slide_shows/slide1.htm

Rob

Smile

Rob,

I have never seen these performers so, please do not take this as a judgement of them. However, to the best of my knowledge, Andre has not given the rights to perform that illusion to anyone other than David Copperfield and Andre's son, Tim. This particular version in the picture looks identical to the one Andre has in his show. I should know, I used to put it together Smile
I will also mention that the version of Windshear (walking through a fan) that they have is a knock off version. The one created by Jim Steinmeyer (the original version) looks slightly different. Again, I should know, I put it together for the current show I work for.
Darmoe
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Well from the looks of the photo that link goes to I'd have to say that someone "figured it out' and made a crap version of the original.

To my understanding only Tim Kole, Andre, David Copperfield and I think maybe Vanbirch and Wyrick have actual permission for doing the Headslider using this method. Jodi Baran & Co. have a much less believable yet, fair variation that incorporates an entirely different principle that is not as restricted

There are (to my knowledge) only two illusions "out there" using the Kole method... the Head Slider and Shadow Vision... I know SV uses a variation of it because it was my idea to do so Smile (Kenny was having a bad day with that one good brain-cell shorting out.)However, SV does not employ the full costume technique associated with the Head Slider... well, the majority of the SVs sold don't Smile there is one that does and a prototype for a more "clean" version that may (mine, not Creatives!)

Hope this clears some things up.

Smile
"I firmly believe that of all the Arts and Crafts of Mentalism, there is nothing more satisfying than one who is a first-class Reader. It is the ultimate in Mentalism..." - Tony Corinda * 13 Steps To Mentalism
knightmagic98
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I would venture to say that Wyrick does NOT have permission to do it. I also noticed an Origami on that site which does not look authentic.
Darmoe
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I think Steve uses a "Ninja Box" vs. Origami... I know that when he was working with me on the Stacking Televisions effects he'd mentioned talking to Andre about some things... never heard from him since.... don't know what's what.

(Imagine... you move out of Vegas because all the magicians are moving in, and you get out of the loop on all the good gossip...)
"I firmly believe that of all the Arts and Crafts of Mentalism, there is nothing more satisfying than one who is a first-class Reader. It is the ultimate in Mentalism..." - Tony Corinda * 13 Steps To Mentalism
Kent Messmer
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I have a question. As long as I have been doing magic one would think that I should know this. But I don't so here it is.

I understand that people invent effects, or at least new ideas that have been around longer than most of us, and that they should get credit for them. I also know that in most cases there is no patent for them. In the cases there are I understand.

My question is how does one protect an idea? What law covers this? A copyright can protect a routine and such but not the mechanical workings of an idea. That would be a patent.

I have heard of magicians that have build or had items built that were "copies" of someones ... oragami lets say and they were just about run out of town, so to speak. I understand that the creators are upset because they did not receive anything for it but what right do they have if they did not obtain a patent?

I have several stage illusions that I paid a lot for. Was the workmanship better than what my builder could have done? (I think not) Yes there are poor copies out there but I've seen originals that could have been better. i.e. Time Machine vs Watch and Wear. (funny I didn't hear anyone complaining about this knock off)

I don't know about Andre Kole and weather or not he has a patent for these illuions. But if he doesn't, what can he, or anyone else, do about it?

By the way, please don't jump on me for asking this. I'm not going to start manufacturing these I would just like to know.
reedrc
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Beause Andre designed and developed the illusion FIRST, he owns the rights to it.
I do believe he holds the propriatary rights to the illusion as well. But only ANDRE could answer that question. There are OTHER ways to do head off guys, ho about lying down? Or pulling the head off Up instad of to the right.... these little modifications will make it yours, and will indeed be different. Use different meathods and effect, and you'd have nothing to worry about.
Kind Regards

Ryan C. Reed
Founder, Illusion Entertainment

designer, director, theatrical consultant, digital wizard, magic impresario, wonder aficionado, Illusioneer & dream architect.

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knightmagic98
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The way I understand it Inventors are not required to reveal their secrets in a patent. They are protected by trade secret laws. WAM has a book on protecting magician's secrets that details the laws that apply to our art. You can get it by going to the website http://www.magiciansalliance.com/book.html
Thomas Wayne
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My impressions of the "CDRMagic" site are this: a bunch of cheesy looking illusions - at least three of which are blatant knock-offs - and Merete needs to put the fork down for a while.

Regards,
Thomas Wayne
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
Darmoe
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Quote:
On 2002-07-31 18:03, Kent Messmer wrote:
I have a question. As long as I have been doing magic one would think that I should know this. But I don't so here it is.

I understand that people invent effects, or at least new ideas that have been around longer than most of us, and that they should get credit for them. I also know that in most cases there is no patent for them. In the cases there are I understand.

My question is how does one protect an idea? What law covers this? A copyright can protect a routine and such but not the mechanical workings of an idea. That would be a patent.

I have heard of magicians that have build or had items built that were "copies" of someones ... oragami lets say and they were just about run out of town, so to speak. I understand that the creators are upset because they did not receive anything for it but what right do they have if they did not obtain a patent?

I have several stage illusions that I paid a lot for. Was the workmanship better than what my builder could have done? (I think not) Yes there are poor copies out there but I've seen originals that could have been better. i.e. Time Machine vs Watch and Wear. (funny I didn't hear anyone complaining about this knock off)

I don't know about Andre Kole and weather or not he has a patent for these illuions. But if he doesn't, what can he, or anyone else, do about it?

By the way, please don't jump on me for asking this. I'm not going to start manufacturing these I would just like to know.


O.k. I'm going to try to tackle this issue but do note, some serious personal bias (based on observance & experience) may shine through.

The whole "Ethics" issue seems to have taken root in the mid/late 80s due to a handful of elements that came together... Jim Sommers being accused/guilty of once again replicating a cool trick (in the 70s he got nailed over the Zig Zag and this time, over Origami)... the "original" Masked Magician (not Val but Hal) had a video "How It's Done" come onto the market... and too, you had celebrated men like Alan Wakeling and Jim Stinemeyer who simply weren't getting "their due" for what they were putting out. Allied with this last issue were the performers who, after paying a premium for exclusivity, found others with cheap knock-offs, riding on their coat tails.

MAGIC Magazine went rather in depth on this debate in the early 90s but, I do not believe any kind of resolve has come into being. Some designers who belong to the "right" cliques seem to be "more protected" than others e.g. if you "play the game" correctly and the "right" people like you and have no problem associating with you, your effects and methods seem to be a bit more "safe" and prone to industry wide "awareness" than those that "beak the rules" and who refuse to "conform."

I've mentioned this before in example... the Impalment -- invented by Ken Whitaker and yet a noted builder in So. Cal. gets away with telling the world that it's his, charges about $10k more for the thing, has never (in my chats with him) given Kenny credit and even demeans two other major builders (who've been around longer) in their ability to make the unit "right". Yet, none of these people (with one exception I'm aware of) pay Kenny a dime on the scores of KNOCK OFFS and UNAUTHORIZED sales they've put out.

Why?

It wasn't an issue back then... magic didn't "work that way" when it came to effect protections and the related "give me a buck"... royalty practice that seems to have come into vogue in the 80s (and has thus proceeded to hurt magic in many ways, since; creating a "Caste" like division that's far more pronounced than ever before.)

The other thing that's come of "trend" is the difference between "what is legal" vs "what is ethical"... e.g. find an old trick in an old book and if it isn't legally copyrighted, etc. put your name on it and file the papers to do so... I won't mention names but certain retailers in the Bizarre side of the business have made a killing in doing this (and all the "right" people consign her actions because it is "legal" vs. moral, ethical, etc.)

Well, I'm backing myself into a corner... like a Chinese Finger Puzzle, this is a situation that becomes more and more confounding the harder you try to understand it and "define" it. My only suggestion is to bite your tongue, belong to the right cliques in the right clubs, and buy all the right people drinks... then you'll have a higher level of support and concept protection... Oh! I forgot... to do all this, you best have some establish money behind you... it's expensive generating this kind of support.

Sorry to sound so crass, but this has been my experience over the years... I've had numerous concepts "borrowed" by folks who were in the "right circles" and simply "forgot" where info came from (we'll ignore certain bias held towards me because of my affilliations with Kirkham, let alone my lack of compliance to certain levels of political correctness long ago... and people wonder why I come off as "bitter" at times Smile )

I know I've dug a hole here, but it's hard to explain this any other way, once you've taken a long 20+ year look at who seems to get the most "industry based" support on their creations and who don't... not that politics has ever caused any kind of unfair favoritism in magic Smile
"I firmly believe that of all the Arts and Crafts of Mentalism, there is nothing more satisfying than one who is a first-class Reader. It is the ultimate in Mentalism..." - Tony Corinda * 13 Steps To Mentalism
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