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AutarchicFlux Special user 583 Posts |
Dave, these bubbles are not small or inconsequential. The photos in this thread attest to how huge, unsightly, and routine-destroying they are. They should never, ever have gone to market whatsoever. If this indeed was the result of a long process, as you say, then boy, you're inept.
You STILL have not addressed the low quality, crumbling salt balls. I'm glad to hear you lost so much money on this. I'm not so glad to see that you're blaming customers, instead of who you should be blaming - yourself. The fact that you're chalking this up to "trolling and negativity" and still claiming the air bubbles were "small" makes me sorry you didn't personally lose 10 times more money. As for Craig's role - sue him, maybe? He also deserves to pay for his mistakes on this one. |
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Bonz Regular user Twickenham, London, UK 168 Posts |
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On May 5, 2022, AutarchicFlux wrote: First of all, there were no bubbles that big on any of the ones we sent out, I can only assume that this has happened over time, I hope that it's only a very small amount. Secondly, anyone who has a bubble and sends it back to the dealer they got it from, WILL receive a full refund! The balls can simply be refreshed by rolling them in some glue, then back in some salt, they don't crumble, but may have a bit of salt coming off. Again, I never performed this, it's not my trick, I simply made them. Craig never had an issue with the salt coming off, or if he did, he never mentioned it! Craig gave the go ahead to ALL this trick as it was, I presumed EVERYTHING was fine when it was sent out to Murphys. |
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sirbrad Inner circle PA 2096 Posts |
Well if my little clear glue experiment works then you wasted a lot of money for nothing on resin. As I said though it would be easier and better to just make a mold of the hole in the shaker, and then make some clear "coin discs" to glue inside the hole perfectly. Or perhaps drill them out of sheets of acrylic the proper size then glue them in. There is no need for the shaker to be totally full and solid, especially if it has those horrible big bubbles that only the makers and Craig claim "not to be a problem".
Calling out scammers is not "negativity and trolling", most of the time it is just the facts. Other scammers have posted similar long responses in threads in the past but it did not change the fact that they were scammers. But in your case you could have pulled this product but instead you chose to cut your losses and give it to Murphy's, then it came back to bite you in refunds wanted. So then you blame the customer. Had you done it right this may have been a huge success, but karma came back to bite you because you wanted to sell all the lots, defected ones and all. Sometimes a trick just does not work out, or not the way you want to do it. So for the sake of reputation it is far better to scrap it then to try and stick people with unusable junk that cannot be showed freely as the ad claims. Making a few extra bucks is not worth it, especially if you can fix it and put out a good product that everyone is happy with and looks the way it is supposed to look and perform the way it is supposed to perform. It sounds like the prototype was "good enough" but mass producing them did not go as planned. So they should have never been put out as is. The only way it is "not a problem" is if you try and hide the bubbles, and do not hand it out to the spectator, or do not do the solid shaker at all. But this defeats the whole purpose of the trick and paying that high price. Same with the salt balls falling apart with each use. They were obviously not tested for long-term durability issues either. Also if my clear glue version does not dry fully I left room in the top for some resin or perhaps some clear epoxy to seal it solid for sure, or perhaps a clear disc cut from acrylic as I said. Maybe even hot glue as it is relatively clear. Worst case is the glue will be kinda gummy or like Jello, but would work as long as it is durable enough not to pour out come off on your finger. But I would rather seal it in with something harder if it does not fully harden. I just think it will take a long time. But technically only the top has to harden fully. I just checked my shaker and ALL bubbles are completely gone now, so now the question is whether it hardens enough or if I can seal the top.
The great trouble with magicians is the fact that they believe when they have bought a certain trick or piece of apparatus, and know the method or procedure, that they are full-fledged mystifiers. -- Harry Houdini
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sirbrad Inner circle PA 2096 Posts |
Also charging everyone a high cost for all of your past "trial and errors/failures" to get to this current failure is ridiculous. That would be like me charging my audience for all of my bad past tricks that I bought, or even all the good ones. I would get rich fast that is for sure. But that is not how it works, you charge them the same flat reasonable fee and over time you make money from more and more gigs at that rate.
The same with effects, you make more and more sales over time if the price is reasonable and the product is actually good and lives up to the ad, then you sell a lot of them. In this case it does not do either. If you can't make it right and it is not "profitable" to make, then do not put it on the market and do not sell defective ones to try and make up for your losses. Find a better way to make them or don't do it at all. It is that simple.
The great trouble with magicians is the fact that they believe when they have bought a certain trick or piece of apparatus, and know the method or procedure, that they are full-fledged mystifiers. -- Harry Houdini
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davidpaul$ Inner circle Georgetown, South Carolina 3086 Posts |
Thomas Edison made over 10,000 unsuccessful attempts to create the light bulb.
Wonder how affordable a light bulb would have been if he incorporated the cost involved?
Guilt will betray you before technique betrays you!
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Mad Jake Inner circle All the voices in my head helped me make 2200 Posts |
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On May 5, 2022, AutarchicFlux wrote: Now that is the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard. Sue Craig for coming up with an idea? That's not how it works. Responsibility falls on the manufacturer and the dealer. First you would have to sue a dealer and in turn a dealer would have to sue the manufacturer or supplier, in this case Murphys Magic. Murphy's then would have to sue Prop Dog, who then would have to sue the manufacturer. It's a legal pecking order. And what is your basis for a law suit? Bubbles? LOL!!! As to the bubbles not being there before shipping, that is BS! We cast resins, acrylics and even do foundry work here. Those bubbles where there when they shipped out the product. It was mentioned earlier in the thread that the shakers should have been filled and put in a pressure chamber to force out the air that is the proper way to do it. Even a vacuum chamber would have worked. They cut corners, plain and simple. If it is a resin, in the shakers, then everything comes into play, ambient temperature of a room to humidity. But again, a pressure chamber would have fixed that. Did they think that the bubbles would just go away? Craig had a GREAT idea, but the manufacturer who brought it to life, dropped the ball in a very big way. And with Murphy's being Murphy's, they didn't check their inventory when it came in, so in my opinion they are equally to blame. I have a set and I love it, no air bubbles. Salt does wear off, but I expected that to happen, a little spray tack and some fresh salt and it's as good as new. Great effect Craig, Thank you!!!!
Licensed Steve Dusheck Manufacturer and distributor visit www.airshipmagic.com
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Doric Special user 791 Posts |
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On May 4, 2022, AutarchicFlux wrote: Bonz has spoken, as I said he would |
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DaphneFairfax New user 26 Posts |
Having read through all this, I don't see why PropDog are under fire.
Craig approached them and requested they make something for him to release. They didn't even know the routine but made some props per Craig's request. PropDog were not happy with the quality but Craig decided they were okay for the routine. It was Craig's call to sell it despite knowing about the bubbles. As Bonz said, if it was his product he wouldn't have released it, but Craig Petty made a different decision. |
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RNK Inner circle 7493 Posts |
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On May 5, 2022, Mad Jake wrote: Agreed Jake, those bubbles were most certainly there when the units shipped. I believe the reason why you have no air bubbles is because the resin was injected into the shaker carefully and slowly. I also agree that bubbles just don't start appearing after a resin solidifies. I did purchase one of those 50% off sets from Hocus Pocus. As for the salt balls, I will agree they are very fragile and pretty much immediately started flaking and chipping as soon as I began practicing the routine. Though in fairness, as you stated Craig does mention in the tutorial about using super glue and rolling them in salt which is what I did and worked fine. My salt shaker does have bubbles in the bottom and some up the one side and a few on the other side but in all honesty I actually agree with what Craig says in the tutorial that even though the shakers may have some bubbles, it won't matter at all. Because of how the routine flows, the moment the omni shaker is switched in, there is no heat on it as everyone is focused on the cap with the half salt ball sticking out of it. When I first saw this routine, for what the magic is I really didn't think it was worth $200. Not sure I even think it's worth $160 now. But that could be debatable if you would have no maintenance with the salt balls and even received a omni shaker with no bubbles. But for $80 I am quite pleased even with my bubbled omni shaker, lol. I underestimated the potential of the magic this routine had to offer. Just my thoughts....
Check out Bafflingbob.com
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3014 Posts |
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On May 5, 2022, davidpaul$ wrote: Exactly. When I was earning my MBA, one of the major things we studied was the sunken cost fallacy. Sounds like that would have applied here.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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saturnkk Veteran user Commerce Township, MI / Naples, FL 316 Posts |
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On May 5, 2022, Andrew Zuber wrote: Not to get too far off of course but I believe the light bulbs were a loss leader for... electricity. Edison gave the bulbs away initially but charged for electricity. Kind of like razors and printers (blades and ink). |
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Don Wand Regular user 186 Posts |
I was thanking all that time and money trying to make one without bubbles. Just my thought keeping it as simple as can be. Thank about taking a salt shaker and filling it with distilled water and make a clear plug with a small hole in it to let out the pressure and bubbles tap it down inside the opening and then seal it from there. Simple as it comes and makes since to me.
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sirbrad Inner circle PA 2096 Posts |
That is another issue with the salt balls, when you use real salt it is going to dissolve little by little with each use as the sweat and moisture of your hands absorbs it. To have to constantly use real salt and messy glue is also absurd for the price that you have to pay for this. The props are supposed to be good to go for a long time, not constantly needing repairs in order to perform.
With the high price you should have the best quality props already that you paid for, not cheap junk that you have to keep fixing. The cheap shaker I made with clear glue is now "crystal clear" and there are no sign of any bubbles, at the top or bottom. Now it is all a matter of waiting for it to fully cure, or for the top to cure; which could take a long time to dry normally. I might try another one with a hair dryer sometime. But I think air drying will give the best results and if not rushed. The look though is absolutely perfect, and what they should look like to begin with. Resin dries faster but comes with other issues. I still think just the top should be sealed. Or you could even just glue the lid on the "solid" one and present it that way as it will look exactly the same then as well. Then you could scrap the half ball in lid. But if the props were made well as they should have been, and how they claimed them to be; you would not have to do all of these fixes. The issues are so bad at this point I feel as though I should be paid to do the trick because of all the hassles, and I should have not pay a penny for them since they would cost me so much time and more money to keep doing. I still think that filling the shaker is unnecessary, and screams "switch" to anyone with even an ounce of common sense. Even more so with a giant bubble in the middle. A more accurate tagline would be, "Hello everyone I am Craig Petty and this...is "Bubble-shaker."
The great trouble with magicians is the fact that they believe when they have bought a certain trick or piece of apparatus, and know the method or procedure, that they are full-fledged mystifiers. -- Harry Houdini
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CardGuyMike Special user 787 Posts |
From a marketing perspective, I find all of this fascinating. I might have expected this to be a $50 release. Setting it at $160 to recoup R&D costs seems divorced from reality. If the props had been perfect, would you have found it to be worth that much? What if it had been priced at $250?
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Mad Jake Inner circle All the voices in my head helped me make 2200 Posts |
My little brother ordered some salt shakers today and a gallon of Aluminite. He claims along with others it is the best on the market. He's going to make some Omni shakers, not to sell but as an experiment.
Aluminite claims no pressure chamber is needed, but it certainly doesn't hurt to add the assurance. Freddy likes solving problems in productions, he runs my machine shop for me in Va. and is quite the fixer. How many units did Craig make? Maybe Craig could chime in. Right now it's looking like 8.00 per shaker to make. If the production wasn't that large, I think he is willing to help Craig out and fix the issue for everyone's bubble shakers. As to the salt balls, do not use Glue, use a spray tack, roll it around in salt and allow to dry, usually about 30 minutes. I knew immediately when reading the ad that I would have to do this, it's common sense that is would wear, especially under constant use. Glue will put a thick layer on, while spray tack will only but a micron layer of adhesive on. If you continue to use glue, you will end up with a snow ball size ball of salt.
Licensed Steve Dusheck Manufacturer and distributor visit www.airshipmagic.com
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sirbrad Inner circle PA 2096 Posts |
Personally I would not use real salt as I stated it will just keep evaporating with each use from handling as I said due to sweat and moisture on the hands. You could seal the salt in with some glue but then it would change the texture and probably still evaporate it from the liquid in the glue itself.
I would use something that closely resembled salt, like a fine white stone ground into a powder maybe, like white aquarium stones. Then seal that. The only advantage to using real salt is that it flakes and comes off like real salt, because it is well...real salt. But that is also its disadvantage, it does not last long. But in this case the shaker bubbles are more of an issue combined with the cost.
The great trouble with magicians is the fact that they believe when they have bought a certain trick or piece of apparatus, and know the method or procedure, that they are full-fledged mystifiers. -- Harry Houdini
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sirbrad Inner circle PA 2096 Posts |
Quote:
On May 6, 2022, CardGuyMike wrote: Well I think they would be a lot cheaper then actually, as they claim the high price is because they went through so many failures and they want us to pay for that. Except the current version is still a failure, so basically they want to recoup those costs now anyway. They want us to pay for their mistakes. It is ludicrous to think that anyone would agree to do this and pay them all of that money just because they messed up so many times, and when the current product is still defective. There is no logic in that whatsoever, yet you have a few on here who still did this or got lucky and got ones not as bad. You even have one who claims to have "bought four sets" just to get two OK ones. Not sure how intelligent that is, or if they just have a lot of money to burn, or it is just a lie. But should be completely unnecessary nonetheless. My glue shaker (if it cures fully) would cost about $2.00 each tops as far as just an Omni shaker goes. If not it would just need a sealer on top like clear Epoxy glue. Not sure if filling a shaker with Epoxy would work or not, and would be a lot more expensive and you have a time limit to work on as it cures faster. Also it tends to yellow some after curing, so not sure how a full shaker would look.
The great trouble with magicians is the fact that they believe when they have bought a certain trick or piece of apparatus, and know the method or procedure, that they are full-fledged mystifiers. -- Harry Houdini
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Doric Special user 791 Posts |
Bonz is living it up in Las Vegas at the moment while the rest of us are tinkering with resin and bubbles.
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Gaz Lawrence Inner circle 5991 Posts |
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On May 5, 2022, Bonz wrote: Well you should Dave because 95% of all the di.kph.eds are on other social mediums and surely you know that. Facebook, Instagram, twitter etc etc are filled with tw.ts and utter exposure and everyone who now doesn’t use the Café is a l.ar and lurks every single day on the latest and greatest. So you maybe a great guy unlike Ali N.ur. but don’t walk around with your blinkers on as everyone knows if you want to sell something you have to break and make the Café its as pure and simple as that fact. Best wishes Gaz 😊 |
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emyers99 Inner circle Columbus, Ohio 4741 Posts |
I don’t think anyone is a scammer but I stand by my comment that this never should have been released. Tiny air bubbles are one thing. Giant air bubbles are completely different and no amount of patter is going to save the day. It’s a shame prop dog lost money on R&D but it’s also a shame to release a knowingly flawed product into the market and charge a ridiculously high price for it to boot.
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