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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workshop » » Constructing a Floating Table (8 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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grant_gilson
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Where do you draw the line?

I have bought and made several props. There are more I would like to own, but I am not a working pro and it is not reasonable to pay thousands of dollars for a prop I may only use occasonally. Professionally made props no doubt are better than the ones I make (at least I hope so) but the costs so far have been about 5 to 10% of the 'pro' props. Note I have never seen any of these props close up, copied the dimensions, etc. I don't want to think I am ripping anybody off. It's a sale that never would have happened anyway.
bloodyjack
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Exactly
I am with you and legally you're fine. I think that most of the ethics spoken here is a crock I have not been to any magic show and heard 100% original patter!
There is always a line if not from another magician from a TV show or a comedian. So what's wrong with making props if you have the ability to do so.
"sir i sent you half the kidne i took from one woman prasarved it for you tother piece i fried and ate it was very nise i may send you the bloody knif that took it out if you only wate a whil longer"
Rupert Bair
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I think its great if you can make your own props, aslong as they are orginal or you have changed them for the better and they should always be very high quality. Sometimes its not worth making it, ive tried making a floating table that used a diffrent prinipal, it took me ages and in the end I threw it away becuase it was not as good as the orginal and it was not a very good quality, if you cant afford it cant you see if you can get one second hand?
Matt
Chance Wolf
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Quote:
On 2004-07-16 12:13, bloodyjack wrote:
Exactly
I am with you and legaly your fine. I think that most of the ethics spoken here is a crock I have not been to any magic show and heard 100% original patter!
There is always a line if not from another magician from a TV show or a comedian. So whats wrong with making props if you have the ability to do so.


Bloodyjack,
I don't want to come down on you too hard but you hit a nerve with me.
You could not be possibly more wrong in your beliefs. Lifting a line or two from magicians or comedians is a far cry from flat out STEALING the workings, designs, and or method from a Creator/ Builder who has INVESTED thousands of dollars in R&D, Personal labor, advertising etc. People such as myself take HUGE RISKS to provide innovative ideas for the magic community and the LEAST the community can do is give the respect back in return.
Losander is a GENIUS and should be fully respected. His GIMMICK ( which is what is in real debate here ) is BRILLIANT!...SIMPLE...yes...but do YOU THINK OF IT? Did I or any other creator that designs and builds for a living?
NO.
Heck, I WISH I thought of this..and if I did..I would protect it in the EXTREME. Do not give the weak argument that it is just a "Z----E Gimmick". It is a radically modified simple gimmick that takes the entire effect to a level never imagined. That HAS to be understood and respected as Losanders PROPERTY.
You and no one else has any right whatsoever to take/steal from Losander. It is simply wrong and disrespectful.
Look folks, we builders in magic are NOT getting rich. We do this for the love of the art and you could at least make it easier on us and not justify stealing bread from our tables.
I must admit that when I had seen this effect perfomed I thought "heck..I could whip that up in my shop no problem"...but ETHICS are not a bunch of BULL if people have them. I will PURCHASE the effect as I should!!

Let me ask you and the rest of the folks...what are you going to "borrow" next if the Creators simply STOP selling their ideas. My God..you would have to think for yourselves.
Take care,
Chance Wolf
Wolf's Magic
Creator of Wacky Wolf Productions & Fine Collectibles

A DECADE of building Magic and we're just getting started!

http://www.wolfsmagic.com
bloodyjack
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Chance
You have not read the whole thread. I don’t even know what the "radically modified simple gimmick" Is, Other than it works like a Z----E. If I wanted to build my own version I would have to do my own R&D to created it, I would imagine just getting a center of gravity for the thing to float right would take a mountain of R&D? My point was that there is very rarely anything new in magic, methods as well as lines are modified all the time to create new effects.
Don’t get me wrong people who make cheap rip offs for profit are not the people I am defending. For example if I needed a production box for a show I would build it myself because it would be better than the total crap churned out in India and I don’t do kids shows ; )
I was trying to justify my hobby of building my own effects. I am guessing but I am sure that was something you enjoyed before making a business out of creating props.
Were does these magic ethics stop? I built my own sub trunk from plans I purchased. Is that unfair to sub trunk builders? Or is the guy who sells the plans ripping off the builders?
I am working on a product that I hope to market in limited quantity. Its not a totally new idea its a combination of many, formed in too my own effect. I have made a big deal of researching the origins and the number of marketed effects using the principle, I will agree with you the R&D alone is taking forever. I started from scratch 3 times already. My version will be my version but of course I am influenced by what has gone before me.
Its a labor of love because it includes all of my hobbies in one product from magic, woodwork, electronics, software, recording engineer, and robotics.
I too would be ****ed off if someone had a bunch made and was selling then for profit. On the other hand if a fellow magician had all the disciplines needed and the time and money for the R&D to build his own version then good luck to him.
"sir i sent you half the kidne i took from one woman prasarved it for you tother piece i fried and ate it was very nise i may send you the bloody knif that took it out if you only wate a whil longer"
Chance Wolf
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Bloodyjack,
Actually I agree with almost all your points as you are mentioning "Public Domain" effects ( Sub Trunk, Production Boxes etc. ) You bet. That is how I got my start building myself. Recreating old school effects, making my own design and mechanical changes. This is totally cool however building an existing modern effect ( Losanders Floating Table ) and mimicking the design and gimmick is simply bad ethics and uncool.
After reading your last post, you seem to be the kind of guy that would come up with a completley new way of floating a table if you chose to pursue the project. Which is even better since that is the way our whole industry grows.
Hey, I will be up at PCAM. We can get together and talk magic, building etc. Come to my booth...I think I will recognize you Smile
Look forward to seeing you there.
Chance
Creator of Wacky Wolf Productions & Fine Collectibles

A DECADE of building Magic and we're just getting started!

http://www.wolfsmagic.com
bloodyjack
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Chance
I sure will I hope to have a prototype of the effect I am working on and I will show it to you. I am quite excited about it, I am waiting for the Gypsy head to get baked in the oven as I type. If it ever gets further than my one off I will have to find a dolls head I can use but trying to get the thing done before PCAM so I molded one out of femo.
I understand were your coming from and I hope you understand my opinion.
I have no intention of making a floating table and if I did I would want it to look a lot more substantial than Losanders and to be honest even to make one useing the same method would actualy not be as easy as it might seem short of buying one to reverse engineer it and if you can afford to do that then there would be no point.
Cheers BJ
"sir i sent you half the kidne i took from one woman prasarved it for you tother piece i fried and ate it was very nise i may send you the bloody knif that took it out if you only wate a whil longer"
R2
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When Dirk visits me this Saturday I am going to log him in here in this thread....I anxiously await his thoughts?...

Nice civility folks~~Stay tuned for this saturday?
~r2
bloodyjack
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Dirk will be here in Seattle the week after that with a show and lecture at PCAM. I will have to say Hi to him as well as Chance

As a side note to a previous post I believe Tommy Wonders Zombie hook up is in print in his Book of Wonder. Does that not make his hook up method public domain if you want to use it and own the book?
"sir i sent you half the kidne i took from one woman prasarved it for you tother piece i fried and ate it was very nise i may send you the bloody knif that took it out if you only wate a whil longer"
David Todd
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Quote:
On 2004-07-20 14:29, bloodyjack wrote:
As a side note to a previous post I believe Tommy Wonders Zombie hook up is in print in his Book of Wonder. Does that not make his hook up method public domain if you want to use it and own the book?


Only partially. His final design (re-design) of the "zombie" gimmick for his levitation system is not in Books of Wonder .
GuySavoie
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Printing something does not make it "public domain," either.

The term doesn't apply to the mechanics and design of a gimmick, but that's another story.

--- Guy
bloodyjack
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Quote: "And then what do you do for the refinements on the floatation system, which was developed by Tommy Wonder, licensed only to Losander for his Floating Table"

If I want to make an object float useing a method described in a book I can, how can it be published but only licensed to one person. Remember I am not even talking about producing nock offs for profit, we are in the workshop area and talking about making one for personal use.
"sir i sent you half the kidne i took from one woman prasarved it for you tother piece i fried and ate it was very nise i may send you the bloody knif that took it out if you only wate a whil longer"
Micheal Leath
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So, what about this Floating Table from Proof Positive Magic? Is this one infringing on the Losander Floating Table?

http://gallery.bcentral.com/Gallery/Prod......tOrder=0

I agree with you bloodyjack. You should be able to build one for your own use if you so desire. If a method is published in a book, then you should be able to use it. Yes I know that the exact method for the Losander Floating Table is not published, but other methods are and you should be able to use them to make your own.
David Todd
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Quote:
On 2004-07-21 12:19, bloodyjack wrote:
Quote: "And then what do you do for the refinements on the floatation system, which was developed by Tommy Wonder, licensed only to Losander for his Floating Table"

If I want to make an object float useing a method described in a book I can, how can it be published but only licensed to one person. Remember I am not even talking about producing nock offs for profit, we are in the workshop area and talking about making one for personal use.


Again, just for clarification, the design of Tommy Wonder's "zombie" gimmick is not published in his book(s) . Only one aspect of it is discussed in the book. Further refinements that he made to it later have not been published.
bloodyjack
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I get that but there is a method in his book all be it not his latest and just for clarification if a person wants to use this method to make an object float then if its in print surely they can?
"sir i sent you half the kidne i took from one woman prasarved it for you tother piece i fried and ate it was very nise i may send you the bloody knif that took it out if you only wate a whil longer"
Micheal Leath
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I would think so bloodyjack. If someone didn't want their methods being used, then I think they would not publish them. Who knows, someone could come up with their own refinements or a method that better suits them. It should not be a problem if it is for your own use. If you come up with enough of your own refinements, then I think it should be ok to sell it.
David Todd
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Quote:
On 2004-07-21 14:21, bloodyjack wrote:
I get that but there is a method in his book all be it not his latest and just for clarification if a person wants to use this method to make an object float then if its in print surely they can?


Yes.

I believe Tommy Wonder retains the manufacturing rights to his own effects , but if it is published then I presume you are welcome to make it for your own use if you have the ability to do so.
Losander
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Hi Guys,

Thank you for liking my effect, "The Floating table".

I would like to give you some thoughts from my end. First of all, only who buys that table has the rights to perform it. But you are right there are 1000's of copys on the market. Isn't it easy to copy something already existing? But what if no one would have an interest to make there Ideas available to all the other magicians because they would copy it anyway? So what would you copy next? Maybe your own idea? I don't know...it's a sad thing that so many people think so short.

I'm sure all people who came up with something original will agree with me. So if you want my table and can't afford it just buy a used one...I can give you some adresses from people. If you want to make one you will end up spending a lot of money anyway before it works out.

Thanks for listening!
Micheal Leath
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So, Losander, is the Floating Table idea original with you? Yes, the refinements are, but what if someone comes up with their own refinements or they use they use the Zombie style gimmick that was published?

I hope I am not coming across the wrong way. I simply do not see how someone can claim rights to an effect that has been around much longer than they have. Yes, claim rights to the method, but I don't see how someone can be infringing if they simply want to build their own Floating Table using published methods.

Micheal Leath
R2
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Dirk, doesn't like anyone to speak for him, but he said, "Debate with someone who doesn't own the effect isn't constructive?" he left it to me as an owner of an original "Losander Table" to speak for him as an authority on the product?

"Rey~Rey" says, "If you come up with your own refinements that is fine, but you will never know the real work or subtleties until you are a proven owner of the Losander table.. I own a Losander Table and you wont find the real handling nor the real equipment until you personally sign a check to Dirk!

You cannot see what is underneath the cloth? There really is more than you can assume or see! Trust me folks! There is a layering of several different philosophies at work here!

Those of us who really own an original Losander table are laughing at the "Home Depot Handy Men"......Dirk said, that in the future his next project will only be released to past clients of his original material and he urges Chance and Peter Loughran to consider the same? He respects original magic creations and that stealing from a store is no different than stealing from a creator of magic..."Either both pay a fine and do time or neither? "Same difference!"

I will say no more, but to express my dissapointment that Dirk Losander feels for "The Magic Café' Students of Magic!"

He also wishes to be invited by Steven Brooks to have a full say in the matter before folks who are truly informed of all of the facts? He will not be drawn into a debate before folks who are merely speculating?

He isn't an elitist, but merely wishes to do right by his father out of all due respect!

Head bowed firmly down, but still hopeful?, r2

p.s. The subtle details and the aging of the wood cannot be reproduced by a handyman or "Johnny Come Lately?" If you think you can come close then, please pm me with your pictures? I will see your product in ten years?

p.s.s. There are two versions of Dirk's "Floating Table". I own the latest revision.
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