The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workshop » » Constructing a Floating Table (5 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5~6~7 [Next]
haywire
View Profile
Special user
Philadelphia
760 Posts

Profile of haywire
I am amazed at this thread and all the debate.

Whatever "refinements" were made its still just the Z***** method of floating an
object, so I feel you can build a table yourself, especially if its for your own
performing.

People can build lots of things that utilize age old methods and make a profit. Even if he was the first to float a table with that gimmick, its still an age old gimmick and method,He can not own the method.

Losander did not invent the Z***** floating method, and he can not lay claim to it for floating a specific item, like a table, no matter how many "refinements" he makes. That is absolutely ridiculous.

If he did have legal sole right to produce them he'd be suing the balls off of all those people making the so called rip-offs, but he dosn't.

What If I were to decide to start selling a floating chair with a Z***** gimmick, does that mean no one else can sell a floating chair useing a Z***** gimmick?

You COULD build your own floating table perhaps not as nice, perhaps with less "refinements" but it would work, and it would not even cost you 1/10 of losanders version.

I think it is especially okay to build if you are building it for yourself
and not selling it for profit.

The ethics games of people on this board are ridiculous at times, everyone is always trying to protect their friends selling things, even if they are selling junk, or a good item that's just too high priced and logic never applies, there is always hypocricy and double standards all around here.

Its a Z***** gimmick, its public domain, build and float whatever you like using it, and let Mr. Losander sue you for not having the performance rights, I'd love to see him explain to a judge how he owns an age old method for floating objects.

"Performance rights" BAH!

Who's going to sell me performance rights for my sub-trunk?
My Square circle?
My thumb***?
My universal pull?
My Marked cards?
MY Z***** gimmicked table?

And to all those people who say you can't build one as nice, you'd be amazed at the work of some of the people on this board.

And before someone reports this post for flaming, I have to say I find Losanders products beautiful, but they are beyond the reach pricewise of many of us, the method is well known and age old, I am not making personal attacks here, I am
stating simple facts, so this post is well within the rules here.

****WAITING FOR DELETION

Steven
Shrubsole
View Profile
Inner circle
Kent, England
2443 Posts

Profile of Shrubsole
Quote:
On 2005-10-23 11:44, bry1513 wrote:
This is an old thread, I know that, but it was very comical for me as I read peoples posts........I could almost hear their underwear crawling up their cracks. So if peoples theories hold true, that you cannot ETHICALLY build your own floating table because Losander, who didn't invent the floating table by any means, has a method (which you would never know what it is unless you bought it)that is so superior, that making your own would be a crime. So in essence, if I built a floating table which when performed, looked even better than Losanders, it would be unethical for him to build any newer versions, because he could be ripping me off, and so on and so forth. Tony Clark did not invent the invisible dove harness (Love ya Tony), Jeff McBride did not invent the back palm (Love ya too Jeff) and Losander did not invent the floating table. If you have an idea for a floating table and are not ripping off others for profit, but for your own use, don't lose any sleep over it. Plus, I don't know why anyone in his/her right mind would spend $700 to get on stage and say "hey look......a floating table", let alone the $2500 price tag of Losanders. Talk about unethical..........

Take care,

Bryan


I with you all the way on that one!

I think I'll take 3 cups and balls, paint them blue and sue anyone who every does another cup and ball routine!

Chris.
Winner of the Dumbringer Award for total incompetence. (All years)
haywire
View Profile
Special user
Philadelphia
760 Posts

Profile of haywire
I agree 100%

Ethics must be absolute, and not change to suit people who happen to have friends selling things, that's just ridiculous.

One thing I've noticed here is that some users have an agenda that supports their friends financial interests, rather than what is fair and ethical.

You want to spend 2,000$ on a balsa wood table and a z***** gimmick, that's your right, but its also my right to build it myself for 50 bucks and perform with it.
The markup in this business is ridiculous. (Okay here comes the "your paying for the research and time spent developing an effect" argument)

Yeah yeah it took him years to figure out sticking a Z***** gimmick under a lightweight table. He should be rewarded for years and years for that.

In fact, his children and grandchildren and great grandchildren should be rewarded
too after his death.

Oh wait, they could be, that's called a patent! But you CAN NOT patent an age old
illusion/magic tool.

"performance rights" is my new favorite term. Like the magic police are going to come and smack you around for performing an effect without having that.
Who gives another person the right to sell "performance rights" for something that uses a Z***** gimmick?

Does this mean I need performance rights for my thumb*** too if I do a trick I saw someone else use a thumb*** with?

I better contact Darwin, because I have a feeling I owe him a boatload of money.

I love and respect Mr. Losanders work as a performer, but I think he's way off base on this issue. He's free to sell whatever he likes, but I don't think its
all right to tell someone they can't make one themselves.

Perhaps if he made the tables a reasonable price (2 or 3 hundred dollars) I'm sure then he'd sell a lot more. Its not worth the aggravation of building your own if buying one is a fair price.

Steven
rtgreen
View Profile
Inner circle
Portland, Oregon
1322 Posts

Profile of rtgreen
Quote:
On 2005-10-26 13:59, haywire wrote:

Its a Z***** gimmick, its public domain, build and float whatever you like using it, and let Mr. Losander sue you for not having the performance rights, I'd love to see him explain to a judge how he owns an age old method for floating objects.



This arguement has been going on for quite a while now and its fairly obvious that people are going to do what they want on this issue. However, I would like to clarify something. The Zombie Gimmick is neither age old nor public domain. The idea was invented and patented by Joe Karson 56 years ago. I realize the idea has somewhat passed into public domain by the fact that Mr. Karson didn't try to stop its use, but regardless, it still belongs to Mr. Karson.

Thanks,
Richard
haywire
View Profile
Special user
Philadelphia
760 Posts

Profile of haywire
I guess Losander Owe's Joe Karson some money then Smile

Hey Dirk, how many of those 2,000$ Tables have you sold anyway?
bry1513
View Profile
Veteran user
373 Posts

Profile of bry1513
That's $2500
Shrubsole
View Profile
Inner circle
Kent, England
2443 Posts

Profile of Shrubsole
I have an idea for an illusion: Therefore:
I hereby copyright anything that has to do with a box (whatever size)(made out of anything) that produces something (anything) or that makes it vanish!

I'm not even going to tell you about my idea for a black stick with white ends as I haven't patented it yet!

I've also just dipped my thumb in latex - Can you guess what I've just invented!

The only ones here who make the most noise are the ones trying to sell you any of the above.

There is NOTHING new in magic - But if you still don't believe that; Do you want to buy a magic black and white stick from me? (I'm still working on the name for it!)

(Cancel sarcasm mode)

:rolleyes:
Winner of the Dumbringer Award for total incompetence. (All years)
Euangelion
View Profile
Special user
688 Posts

Profile of Euangelion
Anyone who thinks building a floating table is simply of making a light table and shoving a zombie gimmick under it is in for a rude awakening. Issues like location of the weight and center of gravity are important. In addition there are issues of creating an illusion of false mass and volume. The shape and construction of the ZG and its attachment to the table. And mny more.

There are issues yet unaddressed by Losanders approach. Hint: why assume that the ZG is the best solution. What limits does the ZG place on performance? What about the numerous other traditional methods? What can they do and not do? Can methods be combined as a to cancel each other out? Why doesn't a floating table gain rotational motion if it is weightless? Does it failure to rotate imply a limit? Why do these tables always have a single pedestal rather than three or four legs? Why is a table on stage without anything on it? (How many times have I seen that!) Give the table a use in your act otherwise it stands out!)

In other words, think don't copy. Why accept someoneelse's limits as your own?
Bill Esborn

"Lutefisk: the piece of cod that passes all understanding."
haywire
View Profile
Special user
Philadelphia
760 Posts

Profile of haywire
I don't think the issue was how difficult it was to do but rather the ethics of constructing your own verses buying one.

For people to say you can not build your own for ethics reasons is ridiculous.

Would it be difficult? Hell yes but if that magi wants to try, I say go for it!

Nothing would be lost in that experience,only knowledge would be gained.
But yes I agree about limits... Why not just use the effect as the idea
and develop your own method.

I liked the Mirror images suggestion, a floating table with a dancing cane gimmick.
It would work...

Steven
Euangelion
View Profile
Special user
688 Posts

Profile of Euangelion
I believe discussion was both.

Ethically, it is wrong to use another's techniques without permission in perfomance, especially, if you have gained the knowledge second hand.
Bill Esborn

"Lutefisk: the piece of cod that passes all understanding."
haywire
View Profile
Special user
Philadelphia
760 Posts

Profile of haywire
I don't know I think the zombie gimmick and the fact that the table is balsa wood are both pretty common knowledge.

Mak magic sells a floating table for 275.00$ I hear, which is a much fairer and realistic price.

Selling a large illusion which requires expensive hand machined parts and materials I can understand 2500$ for, but not for something of this type.

We will agree to disagree, but I say if someone wants to try and build something they have seen... Go for it, if he's never going to buy one of those from Losander anyway because of the price, no one is losing anything.

If Mak magic can sell one for 275.00 I'm sure the materials cost won't kill him.

Steven
mvmagic
View Profile
Inner circle
Has written
1302 Posts

Profile of mvmagic
I don't own a Losander table nor have I built one but thought I'd pitch in because I did build a flying table earlier this year. And no, it wasn't for magic, it was for a stage play.

I agree with Euangelion 100% about the method. Why does it have to be ZG? I am not saying that there is something wrong with ZG and effects achieved with it. Working with that project made me think about magic (can you imagine?) and the thing allready mentioned: using different techniques. Why not have a table which is gimmicked like the floating table described in Jarrett, ZG, dancing cane and a flying rig? If switches between said techniques are smooth (invisible, that is) and the routine is well thought of, that would be one heck of an effect with the right performer. I bet it would baffle some magicians as well.

The unit I built was really simple, just a (ta-daa!) weathered and stained balsawood thing with an aluminum tube running diagonally thru the top, a thread ran thru the tube to a manual rig with which the table was marionetted on stage whenever the ghost was active. A few springs on the thread and a bit of extra weight on the table (it actually was TOO light) combined with a good puppeteer provided a fantastic effect. I built the darn thing and stood on stage watching it, totally amazed. For good measure we added a big lamp on the table (hey, it was part of a living room, it couldn't be just a table) and yes the lamp was real, working and heavy (close 10 pounds I'd say). How? with a thin sliding metal plate that came thru the wall, just above the tabletop and was retracted when a character picked uo the lamp. In all it looked like magic but was "just" a special effect (thats a fine line sometimes, isn't it?) and the audience loved it-in fact, one kind lady said she'd never expect to see something like that live outside a magic act. I cant take the credit for the greatness of the effect-it had the right context and one totally fantastic operator. It cost about 70 bucks in all-and would have been cheaper if I hadn't been a blonde and drawn the plans in inches and cut the wood in centimeters...

In all, the Losander table has been a really controversial subject. I hope the discussion takes our art forward, I hope all this is a step on the way to the next, even better effect. And I believe it will happen. Not possibly today, but someday.
Sent from my Typewriter
haywire
View Profile
Special user
Philadelphia
760 Posts

Profile of haywire
Wow wanna build me one for 70$ ? That would be awesome!

Your right multiple methods could be used to acheive a great effect.

I've never had an interest in building my own floating table but somehow I'm
now interested a bit. I wonder if you could do it with cardboard for the ultra cheap version?

Steven
haywire
View Profile
Special user
Philadelphia
760 Posts

Profile of haywire
I forgot to mention, a woodworker/furniture restorer introduced me to something called "woodbuff" paint... Sometimes if there is too many layers of paint on a piece they simply rough sand it and paint it with 2 or 3 coats of this "woodbuff" paint. Anyhow that paint is tan like natural wood unstained colored.

After this they stain OVER that and dammit if that does not look like you sanded the piece to bare wood and stained it...

I wonder if that would work on cardboard and make the table built of cardboard look like stained wood?

Steven
Bradley Morgan
View Profile
Special user
Toluca Lake CA
701 Posts

Profile of Bradley Morgan
I think a floating chair instead of the table might be cool. lol

Brad
"I do not know with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones." - Einstein
mvmagic
View Profile
Inner circle
Has written
1302 Posts

Profile of mvmagic
Quote:
On 2005-11-13 19:56, haywire wrote:
Wow wanna build me one for 70$ ? That would be awesome!


70 $ is without labour, only the materials; besides I don't have an own workshop so I used the theatre's scenery shop. Even though I have built props for magic, this prop wouldn't really hold up in constant touring work because it was built for the theatre it was used in and while not in use (other plays as well) it was hooked to a scenery lift and stored high above the stage, didn't break down either. Building one for magic use would require a totally different construction approach.
Sent from my Typewriter
m.ruetz
View Profile
Veteran user
Peoria Arizona, USA
378 Posts

Profile of m.ruetz
Regarding the earlier post about the Karson gimmick not being in public domain since it was patented. This is incorrect, the patents on the Zombie have long expired and legally anyone can use, make, or sell these. No other similar floating Zombie variations for tables or otherwise have been patented to my knowledge.
MagicGizmo: Magic Articles, Classifieds, Videos, and more
http://magicgizmo.com
en2oh
View Profile
Loyal user
215 Posts

Profile of en2oh
Quote:
On 2005-10-28 14:14, rtgreen wrote:
Quote:
On 2005-10-26 13:59, haywire wrote:

Its a Z***** gimmick, its public domain, build and float whatever you like using it, and let Mr. Losander sue you for not having the performance rights, I'd love to see him explain to a judge how he owns an age old method for floating objects.



Just to get into an interesting part of the debate, in order for a patent to remain in force, infringements must be challenged in court. If the patent holder fails to protect his/her patent, the protection is lost. It doesn't mean, obviously that they didn't invent it, or shouldn't be given credit for it... but they or their heirs can't take anyone to court if it can be shown that the method has become public property through common usage.

Now, I'd like to add one thing to the comment about Mr Losanders skills as a performer. He's also an adept teacher (although I'll be dam*ed what he's talking about when he says referring to a dancing cane move by Salvano 'just think of the cane moving in circles and the muscles automatically follow... you can do this for hours'! Smile.

Knowing old world, German craftsmanship for what it is, I'll bet that the Losander Floating Table is a (fathers') work of art and as such, worth a princely sum of money. The single most important selling point for his product to justify the price, that I can see, is the DVD that tutors you in the 'Losander Method' of 'selling' his wonderful effect to an audience. I know some innovators who sell their instructional DVD's, usually for outrageous sums but to which they later apply the cost against the purchase price of the effect. This can be helpful to someone to ensure that the effect will 'work/fit' for them. I don't know if Mr Losander does this but some do.

Anyway, I find this discussion very helpful in exploring how we all think and approach the process of innovation. Only good can come of it.

Doug

This arguement has been going on for quite a while now and its fairly obvious that people are going to do what they want on this issue. However, I would like to clarify something. The Zombie Gimmick is neither age old nor public domain. The idea was invented and patented by Joe Karson 56 years ago. I realize the idea has somewhat passed into public domain by the fact that Mr. Karson didn't try to stop its use, but regardless, it still belongs to Mr. Karson.

Thanks,
Richard
wizzzzard
View Profile
New user
Poland
71 Posts

Profile of wizzzzard
HI..
I have built my own Floating Table... Look and say what you think... Smile
http://magicshow.pl/files/Image/galeria/3.jpg
mvmagic
View Profile
Inner circle
Has written
1302 Posts

Profile of mvmagic
It looks neatly built, but I think Losander wont like it one bit.


Day 4
Sent from my Typewriter
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workshop » » Constructing a Floating Table (5 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5~6~7 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2020 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.19 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL