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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Playing Cards in Mentalism Still an Issue To Some? (20 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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ddyment
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Chaz93 claimed:
Quote:
This debate only exists on the Café. Out in the real world, it doesn't come up.

Curious to know which "real world" Chaz93 is referencing. I have seen this topic come up in many places other than here. It was even the focus of an investigation conducted by the PEA in its early years.

More importantly, I have listened to interval and post-show conversation among audience members at many mentalism shows, and the use of the term "card trick" was commonplace where playing cards had been used. This will be of little concern to some performers, but concerning to others.

I still contend that this is an artistic decision that folks must make for themselves (and reap the attendant consequences), but it helps nobody to obfuscate the issue with false information.
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Scott
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Wow!

Are we really discussing this again? Smile
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Fromentum
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Quote:
On Feb 22, 2022, Scott wrote:
Wow!

Are we really discussing this again? Smile



History always repeats itself ;-)

I think magicians/mentalists will continue to discuss this over the next centuries Smile
ALEXANDRE
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For a while now I've been in the process of writing a manuscript based on a test I conducted where I sat some metaphysical friends down, people who know I like magic but also know I'm a reiki master, reader, etc and showed them 10 things (they were all effects) asking them to later tell me what was real and what was "magic". Some of it included playing cards.

I had very interesting results and I believe it would be of benefit to the community to read such an experiment.

Ultimately though it's what works for you and what you're comfortable with, yes?

Framing and presentation is what it's all about.

I posted originally here because I thought it was interesting that we recently had this discussion at our local magic club.

Either way my point with all of this is not to "fool" the "gullible" (as some of you would call them) but to give people an experience and demonstrate a useful and positive metaphysical perspective or worthwhile information through a demonstration or experiment. Hardly what one would call a "trick".

In the end the "trick", when there is a "trick", is invisible because what really matters is the Why not the How. It's the point of the thing that matters.

If I ask someone to take a card then mix it into the deck and I later look through the deck and tell them what it is, I'm just having fun. Though neat, it's meaningless. I can see how that would be seen by most as a card trick.

Ultimately playing cards are just another tool, a means to an end.

Just like people who get Tarot readings, they're not fixated on the cards themselves, on the actual tool, but on what is being spoken through them. No one cares about my Tarot or Lenormand cards, they care about what they're communicating through me.
Fromentum
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Quote:
On Feb 22, 2022, ALEXANDRE wrote:
For a while now I've been in the process of writing a manuscript based on a test I conducted where I sat some metaphysical friends down, people who know I like magic but also know I'm a reiki master, reader, etc and showed them 10 things (they were all effects) asking them to later tell me what was real and what was "magic". Some of it included playing cards.

I had very interesting results and I believe it would be of benefit to the community to read such an experiment.




This sounds very interesting (even tough the amount of people in the testing group is quite small). Do you mind sharing the results?
Chaz93
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Quote:
On Feb 21, 2022, ddyment wrote:
Chaz93 claimed:
Quote:
This debate only exists on the Café. Out in the real world, it doesn't come up.

Curious to know which "real world" Chaz93 is referencing. I have seen this topic come up in many places other than here. It was even the focus of an investigation conducted by the PEA in its early years.

More importantly, I have listened to interval and post-show conversation among audience members at many mentalism shows, and the use of the term "card trick" was commonplace where playing cards had been used. This will be of little concern to some performers, but concerning to others.

I still contend that this is an artistic decision that folks must make for themselves (and reap the attendant consequences), but it helps nobody to obfuscate the issue with false information.



By real world I mean, out and about in every day life. I don't consider the Café, or magicians groups such as the PEA to be an example of real world. I am talking of interacting with people in daily life. I've never been out to dinner with friends, or having drinks, or attending a social event where this debate has ever come up. I will concede that it does happen outside of the Café but it doesn't pop up as a conversation in my experience unless it's a conversation amongst magicians. At which point it's usually the same dead horse that has been beaten to death. In the end you're completely right that it is an artistic decision that folks must make for themselves. Couldn't agree more. But it's just a topic that has been discussed to the point of it being silly in my opinion. I reject that it's false information to say this topic doesn't come up in the real world though, but that could be simply due to a difference in definition of "real world" as I don't consider magic clubs to be the real world at all, as useful and fun as they may be. This appears to only be a topic that magicians debate.
saturnkk
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If a mentalist pulled a rabbit out of a hat, would he read its mind or make dinner?
Graymatter_Fireworks
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I found this while searching the archives and thought it only fair to share Bob’s thoughts.

https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view......rt=60#15
"The social world in which we live, determines our experience of what is real." - John Gager
John C
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I would submit that some can truly mystify and place belief in their mind reading abilities using playing cards while others using picture, inkblots etc walk away from an audience eyes as a magic hack.


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John C
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Quote:
On Feb 22, 2022, saturnkk wrote:
If a mentalist pulled a rabbit out of a hat, would he read its mind or make dinner?


😂
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David Thiel
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My initial reaction to playing cards in mentalism is always negative. It's not because I object to them because cards are linked in the minds of the audience to magic. It's because I did card magic for 20 years as a magician and got profoundly, absolutely and resolutely sick of them. If anyone at a convention ever wants to see my eyes glass over and the perfect picture of polite-but-completely-unengaged-interest just -- show me a card trick.

But...then I think of the one card effect I have done through my whole performing career -- first as a magician, then as a comedy magician -- and now as a mentalist. It is, in fact the effect that drew me into magic in the first place after I'd seen it performed at a street performer festival. I think the Invis*ble Deck is the single greatest card effect ever. I use it a lot...and have even done it in my stage mentalism shows as a soft opener.

I also consider the notion that, as another poster wisely observed, magician methods can be applied to a wide variety of cards that aren't playing cards and how well a doubl* l*ft serves me when I'm doing an ESP card effect -- or how I for*e a specific postcard...and I am forced to sigh and agree that playing cards absolutely have a place in mentalism.

David
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upnxrawk
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I see no problem with using cards with mentalism. The cards are just another tool for me to show my powers. Just like billets or books or any prop in mentalism. Just my two cents.
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Whilst I don't see the issue with using playing cards in mentalism I do not use them myself.

This is due to being if the opinion that they do not suit my performance style or fit in logically to the routines I do.

However I am amused that this topic has been going on since minds greater than my own can remember.

MB
Scott
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Slightly interesting.

I haven't used playing cards in my performances for a long time now, simply because they don't support the image I'm trying to create in the minds of the audience. That said there is no right or wrong, so this debate (as has been proved for the past 50 years that I can remember) can't really go anywhere.

What is interesting is that for the past 12 years ish I've only been handling bridge sized double blank cards in stacks of about 30 secured with an elastic band, or a stack of about 20 business cards.

A few days ago however I needed to take some photographs for my new book with a deck of cards. So I dug out an old pack of bikes, took them from the box and gave them a quick shuffle.

Boy it felt alien. 52 poker sized cards, it felt like my hands had shrunk and I was trying to shuffle a brick. Bearing in mind I was a card toting, table hopping close up magician for nearly 20 years, this came as a real surprise. There is an in the hands false undercut that I originally learned with a deck of bikes but use extensively with business cards and bridge sized double blanks, could I do it with the poker sized deck? No way, I was all thumbs.

Thinking about it later I suddenly realised the reason that so many spectators I'd performed for over the years, dropped cards on the floor or in their soup when I asked them to shuffle.

Like they say use it or lose it.

Cheers.
Scott Creasey - Mind Reader

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Rhewin
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People will usually associate cards with magic. I see no reason to not use them in demonstrations on how what you do is not magic. For those who own PMM/PME, look at Magic vs Mentalism. What a great use of cards to distance yourself from conjurers.
Slim King
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Have you ever heard the phrase ...CARD TRICK...???? Most people have. Regardless of your feelings one way or another, that's a pretty steep hill to climb. If I like a certain card effect I use Tarot when possible. Otherwise I don't usually do it ...(Except for one) Smile Smile Smile
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Rhewin
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Quote:
On Mar 18, 2022, Slim King wrote:
Have you ever heard the phrase ...CARD TRICK...???? Most people have. Regardless of your feelings one way or another, that's a pretty steep hill to climb. If I like a certain card effect I use Tarot when possible. Otherwise I don't usually do it ...(Except for one) Smile Smile Smile


I don't know, Osterlind seems to have no problems with his audience by simply saying "it's not a trick deck, ok?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpQD1_798qEs That final reveal is about as strong as it gets IMO.
Slim King
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Na.....
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
Fromentum
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Quote:
On Mar 18, 2022, Slim King wrote:
Have you ever heard the phrase ...CARD TRICK...???? Most people have. Regardless of your feelings one way or another, that's a pretty steep hill to climb. If I like a certain card effect I use Tarot when possible. Otherwise I don't usually do it ...(Except for one)



Now you got us curious...... Which one? ;-)
ALEXANDRE
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A lot of good points being raised, though I have no problem using playing cards even in metaphysical circles, none at all, and I enjoy them. At a metaphysical store in my area where I sometimes get hired to do readings, there's a lady there who does cartomancy readings, she's always walking around with a deck of cards, never heard anyone ask her to do a trick or mention magic tricks.

Take a routine like And There Is Silence, it's card routine never presented as a trick, most of what I do is not presented as a trick, but as an experiment, or as part of a reading, on even as an anecdotal piece to get people thinking. Never a card trick.

In the above mentioned routine it's all very conversational, minimal procedure, and very fair. They make a choice, then they burn cards, and that leads to a card, their card, which I usually give a reading on before the card even gets turned over in order to prolong the mystery. Click on my signature for more.

Like I said up top, ultimately playing cards are just a tool, a means to an end.

Smile
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