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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » All in the cards » » Chicago Opener without the Hindu Shuffle (7 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Pyppo100
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What do you think of Ekaterina's performance of the Chicago Opener effect that doesn't use the Hindu Shuffle?

https://youtu.be/laWUeCByivk?t=141

Thanks!

Best regards
Nikodemus
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I think it is very strange that so many people do Chicago Opener with the Hindu Shuffle. It's totally unnecessary for that trick.
Pyppo100
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On Aug 15, 2022, Nikodemus wrote:
I think it is very strange that so many people do Chicago Opener with the Hindu Shuffle. It's totally unnecessary for that trick.


Daryl uses the Hindu Shuffle... ;-)

https://youtu.be/kumlnXLJLLk?t=73

Thanks!

Best regards
Nikodemus
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There are lots of variations of Chicago Opener by other other highly respected magicians. Some use the Hindu Shuffle, others don't. If you search the Café, you will find previous discussions.

We all need to make our own choices. We can learn from the masters, but there is no need to copy them slavishly. Personally I don't use the HS as a control or force, because I never do a genuine HS. The only person I know who does do the HS as her standard shuffle is a friend of mine with Indian origins. That's how all her family shuffle a deck. So for her, I think it would make perfect sense to use HS as Daryl does. But I prefer to use methods that are much more in keeping with how I normally handle cards.

There has been a lot of discussion of how strong/weak the HS force is. Pop Haydn created Chicago Surprise specifically to address this (although he does use the HS as a control in the first phase) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7zDyQqVUKc
mlippo
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In my opinion the problem is NOT the Hindu Shuffle itself, but the fact that you use a fan for the first selection and the Hindu Shuffle for the second. Consistency in the rubbish seems to be the favourite choice here .. Smile
Frank Garcia, Daryl and many more fell into this trap.

Roberto Giobbi has a beautiful solution in his CC 5 book. That's the approach I use. Although I don't use the "kissed" card during the routine ...
Obviously the immense Pop Haydn has found an even better solution: both cards from a fan and if the force of the second card doesn't work, who cares??? The finale is surprising and astonishing just the same!

Mark
_Alex_
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Quote:
On Aug 15, 2022, Nikodemus wrote:
I think it is very strange that so many people do Chicago Opener with the Hindu Shuffle. It's totally unnecessary for that trick.


It's how it's originally done. It's perfectly acceptable to go with the original version if it's the best effect in your eyes. I personally think the hindu shuffle is underrated. Magicians can shuffle cards however they like for clarity of effect. To me the weakness of the Chicago Opener is what Eugene Burger said. It's the tension on the odd card at the wrong moment. All of the heat is on a card that's a different back design and you can't just show it. That's a problem.
Nikodemus
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Quote:
On Aug 23, 2022, _Alex_ wrote:
It's how it's originally done.


Hi Alex - I'm not not sure who you regard as the "original". I hope not Daryl, because it was published long before he came along, If the Hindu Shuffle suits you, that's great. This has been discussed elsewhere on the Café, and there are credible arguments for and against. But "because it's the original" is not a good reason to justify anything really.

Mark makes a really good point about consistency. I would add that the second selection should seem at least as fair as the first one.
_Alex_
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[quote]On Aug 23, 2022, Nikodemus wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 23, 2022, _Alex_ wrote:
It's how it's originally done.


Hi Alex - I'm not not sure who you regard as the "original". I hope not Daryl, because it was published long before he came along, If the Hindu Shuffle suits you, that's great. This has been discussed elsewhere on the Café, and there are credible arguments for and against. But "because it's the original" is not a good reason to justify anything really.

Daryl's handling is the most popular way of doing it. So I figured it was the original. I should not have assumed something like that. My point simply was that if someone likes the hindu shuffle they should use it. So you're actually agreeing with me here. I only commented on that since it seemed like you wanted no one to use the hindu shuffle. But you were simply arguing that the hindu shuffle doesn't have to be used. I agree there.
Pyppo100
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Quote:
On Aug 23, 2022, Nikodemus wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 23, 2022, _Alex_ wrote:
It's how it's originally done.


Hi Alex - I'm not not sure who you regard as the "original". I hope not Daryl, because it was published long before he came along, If the Hindu Shuffle suits you, that's great. This has been discussed elsewhere on the Café, and there are credible arguments for and against. But "because it's the original" is not a good reason to justify anything really.

Mark makes a really good point about consistency. I would add that the second selection should seem at least as fair as the first one.


Very interesting! ... some forcing like "Riffle Force" I think are more convincing when the spectator is distant from the magician...


Thanks!
Best regards
gregg webb
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I agree with you all. But, just to mention it, I saw a handling of the Hindu where you actuall draw away cards from the face of the right hand group and you can show the face of the right hand's group to be changing. You use the same action as your regular Hindu. The difference between the two is imperceptible if you practice a bit to get it smooth and casual.

I use the Hindu in my Ambitious Card set. Call this variation a False Hindu.
Claudio
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Quote:
On Aug 25, 2022, gregg webb wrote:
I agree with you all. But, just to mention it, I saw a handling of the Hindu where you actuall draw away cards from the face of the right hand group and you can show the face of the right hand's group to be changing. You use the same action as your regular Hindu. The difference between the two is imperceptible if you practice a bit to get it smooth and casual.

I use the Hindu in my Ambitious Card set. Call this variation a False Hindu.

Would that be John Cornelius's Oh-Calcutta Shuffle? Not the right handling for this effect, I would think.
Pyppo100
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On Aug 23, 2022, mlippo wrote:
In my opinion the problem is NOT the Hindu Shuffle itself, but the fact that you use a fan for the first selection and the Hindu Shuffle for the second. Consistency in the rubbish seems to be the favourite choice here .. Smile
Frank Garcia, Daryl and many more fell into this trap.

Roberto Giobbi has a beautiful solution in his CC 5 book. That's the approach I use. Although I don't use the "kissed" card during the routine ...
Obviously the immense Pop Haydn has found an even better solution: both cards from a fan and if the force of the second card doesn't work, who cares??? The finale is surprising and astonishing just the same!

Mark


For this Edward Oschmann variant, could you also perform the first phase and the second phase with the Hindu Shuffle?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tUocvFGqNA

Thanks!
mlippo
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Quote:
On Aug 25, 2022, Pyppo100 wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 23, 2022, mlippo wrote:
In my opinion the problem is NOT the Hindu Shuffle itself, but the fact that you use a fan for the first selection and the Hindu Shuffle for the second. Consistency in the rubbish seems to be the favourite choice here .. Smile
Frank Garcia, Daryl and many more fell into this trap.

Roberto Giobbi has a beautiful solution in his CC 5 book. That's the approach I use. Although I don't use the "kissed" card during the routine ...
Obviously the immense Pop Haydn has found an even better solution: both cards from a fan and if the force of the second card doesn't work, who cares??? The finale is surprising and astonishing just the same!

Mark



For this Edward Oschmann variant, could you also perform the first phase and the second phase with the Hindu Shuffle?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tUocvFGqNA

Thanks!


Yes,sure you could.

Mark
Nikodemus
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Going back to Ekaterina, I'm not a big fan of the riffle force either.
I tend to agree with the ideas here - https://www.thejerx.com/blog/2017/10/8/t......rq=force
A selection seems more convincing when the spectator can take their time and can change their mind. (Rather than tell-me-when-to-stop).
I like the under spread force a lot. Also Gary Ouellette's Touch Force. Either of these would (n my opinion) make the second phase of CO consistent with first phase, and more convincing.

Also - Bill Malone has a great version called The Mind Reading Magician (?)
Wravyn
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You want to get rid of the cross cut force and have the cards selected the same way... How about the spectator just giving the cards a single cut, look at the card they cut to, put onto the half they cut off and complete the cut.
The next card, done the same way... Just start with a short card on top that matches your red backed card.
They place their first selection on top of the short card. The second selection, the short card is somewhere close to center and they cut to it, look at it is and bury it like the did the first time.
Ed Oschmann
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Here's magician David Ung, who adapted my trick without the Hindu Shuffle. I use this professionally, so the hindu shuffle force works for me as I can interact with people who are out arms reach. David made some personal handling changes, but didn't mess with the structure.

https://youtu.be/qZaiUjMxj6o
Pyppo100
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Quote:
On Sep 2, 2022, Ed Oschmann wrote:
Here's magician David Ung, who adapted my trick without the Hindu Shuffle. I use this professionally, so the hindu shuffle force works for me as I can interact with people who are out arms reach. David made some personal handling changes, but didn't mess with the structure.

https://youtu.be/qZaiUjMxj6o


The discussion is also about using two different types of card shuffles, respectively for the first phase and for the second phase.

What do you think!

Thanks!
Ed Oschmann
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Just a few thoughts: Ekaterina underscores the point that no hindu shuffle is used in her routine as if it’s a selling point. Hers certainly gets the job done, and by getting the job done we mean getting the odd backed card over the selection.
To that end, you can get there anyway you want. The structure of the Chicago opener is strong enough to support various handling’s. In the end what you like is what you like.
Clearly I like the hindu shuffle. I think it has an engaging look, and as a force it is very very strong, not to mention fair. You can argue that point, but hundreds of performances have demonstrated it’s effectiveness.
Changing the selection procedure from a very fair select a card from a spread of cards and later using the Hindu shuffle force for the second selection depends on the context of the performing situation. If I’m working for a small group of people then using the Hindu shuffle force could be a little bit weird. However if you want to engage somebody who is beyond arms length, let’s say a banquet table at a corporate event, it makes total sense to have them say stop and look at a card via the HS. If I’m working for a very small group, then performing a reverse cull of the oddbacked card to place it over the first election makes more sense. Context.
To call it rubbish is simply myopic.
mlippo
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Who said the Hindu Shuffle is rubbish?

Mark
Ed Oschmann
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Changing selection procedures.
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