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Dannydoyle
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OK I am getting a LOT of PM's about why I am not really chiming in much here so let me say why and maybe ad a few things. First off let me state my long standing rule about how I give advice. I NEVER talk about things I only "think" work, or about things that I just don't know or do. This has become about one night shows, and all that goes with the one time booking process. I can't REMEMBER the last time I did a one night event. It has to have been over 20 years ago. So my knowledge of how to go about it on any level is ZERO, so unlike most guru wannabe types here I simply do NOT talk about it. All I have to offer is jokes (Albeit good jokes.) about book binding. I don't want to distract with such things for much. I am not upset, or anything of the sort. I just have quite little to offer.

See my theory is that if I do one phone call and get a 15 year deal out of it I am better off. Mind you that comes with some very specific life requirements. One being the ability to uproot at any given moment.

Another thing to realize is because I do not do much of this type of thing I AM NOT GOOD AT IT! I am the LAST person to ask.

Mindpro has worked on and in every facet of the entertainment industry for a long time on a very high level. I have NOT. While I do performance on a very high level and do the booking and things necessary for all of that the only reason I run my company is so I HAD A JOB. There was no American entertainers where I went and worked. I created the client. I created the entire market. This I can do. I can not do the one night stuff. It is just SO different. Mindpro HAS done things like this as well. My experience is limited to these things. The agency we run is not a traditional agency at all. We have a client that needs performers and we simply put them there. That is all. They have X shows needed and we just get guys to do them. It is an entirely different animal.

So while it is kind of Mindpro to mention me as if I actually know stuff, it should be clear the HUGE gap in knowledge and experience when I am out of my element. (Again unlike some around I can at least see that!)

OK a few random thoughts for what they are worth. As for the negatives of the business of others, I never talk about it. I am either complimentary of others, or silent. Those are my two go to expressions. If the client is negative I generally pretend I have no idea who they are talking about. If that isn't possible (Like with Blaine or whoever.) I simply say something like "well he is on TV more than me" and let it go. It is WAY to easy for us to come off as petty or jealous by being negative. It is simply a bad look and I don't like it for me. Hopefully they are sold on you and tearing others down isn't necessary to build yourself up. (Actually I don't think it is ever necessary.) Being good on your own should be enough to sell the show.

As for response time I am really a fan of minutes not hours. If I get some sort of automated email response, or answering service I may go to the next on my list. I think as a first impression it needs to be one where they are important. Being they are told they are important by a mailchimp response seems less important than I would want them to feel. I KNOW most guys have other jobs and things to tend to. I fully understand that not everyone can get back to people that fast. The thing to keep in mind that often it is an opportunity thing. If people are shopping, then they will make another call. If that person gives them the service they are looking for, then no matter what your response is it goes unnoticed. Often it is a matter of being the first one to respond. Just something to think about.

As for pricing I am the WORST person to ask. I have a price. I don't negotiate. I don't offer packages. I cost what I cost and you can afford it or not. This works OK when working with regular clients for decades in the places I work. It is NOT great when trying to fit into one night gigs so ignore it entirely!

My last thought here for now will be about the phone and selling. I was and am one who is HORRIBLE at it. BUT fear not there is a solution!! No kidding there is.

I invented an entire person. Back in the day he was the guy who answered the office phone. I found out WHY I was uncomfortable on the phone. I was a "performer" and that was what I spent all my time becoming great at. Learning was easy enough. BUT now I am trying to build up that show and it is me. It seemed SO egotistical and so self aggrandizing that I just couldn't take myself seriously when doing it. Certainly it was tougher because the basis of my entire show is exactly the OPPOSITE of that! Thus I created a person. He had letterhead back in the day, a phone, got an email address and so forth. (Yes in truth he still exists LOL.) When it is ANOTHER PERSON who is building you up and making you sound like the greatest act in the world, it is just a guy doing his job. I felt when I was doing it I was being a dolt. Give it a try. It really works to help you separate yourself from the selling.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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Danny brings up some excellent points. One of the things he bring up is that there are different business models that all entertainment businesses have to choose from. This is from page 13 of the book I sent Tajrung...

A Performer’s Default Approach To Business

The typical default business model for the majority of entertainers, literally 95% or more, is to simply create a show and then try to market it in the hopes of getting bookings.

If they land any bookings, they do the performances and then continue to do the same thing repeatedly, over and over again. This is how most entertainers start out and the majority just continue to keep doing this. It becomes, by default, their business model.

While many still do this to this day and, with the proper effort, it can be sustainable and somewhat successful, they are constantly chasing after their next booking, each and every day. This becomes the default business model for most. However, it is not the only business model.

I encourage you to explore other business models. While many of us may start out with this “default business model,” we can change our business model to something that may be better serving and better producing for you.


This is something that in your first few years many aren't aware of and of course just stick with the default business model as that is all they know. This is fine while you are just establishing as you more than likely are willing to accept almost any booking opportunity that comes your way. But at some point you really need to at least explore other business models for your entertainment business.

Anton Zellman (now retired) who used to be a member here only had 14 clients his whole 30+ performing career, yet he is known as the first mentalist to sign a $1,000,000 deal with one client. Then they renewed once or twice after that for again $1,000,000+. He also had several other of his handful of clients all at six figure annual contracts. This is a business model similar to what Danny has done and mentioned. Those that want to work the amusement market will find their business model to be even different yet. Most beginners are unaware of this but this is what is meant about learning about other business models when you can. Danny's example of making one call and working with one client for 15 years is much different than most magicians or performers even know is available. (and I am not talking about long-term restaurant gigs.)

I mention that I always require those I work with first and foremost to deal in complete honesty in all aspects of their entertainment business.

The next thing I require and instill in these performers is to learn things from an industry perspective (not a personal preference one) and this includes learning things in the proper context as it is presented. We as performers tend to hear, read, or accept information AS IT PERTAINS TO THEM AND THEIR CURRENT BUSINESS AND LEVEL. This is also kind of a default mentality. It is important NOT to apply it to your business and where you are at, but truly try to take the time and effort to understand and accept the info in the proper context it is being offered. Once this has been done you will realize there is much more to your learning than just seeing it adapted to your current position. Once the context is properly understood then you can take the information and try to see it as it applies to where you are currently at.

Same for my business model. Most can't for the life of them understand why I do not want our websites to be found in searches, why they are by invitation only, and why they are not at all compliant with SEO algorithms and preferred formatting. Because they can't understand it they deem it crazy, unacceptable, and not real at all. That is because they hear this and apply it to this default business model or knowledge where of course it makes no sense. Very few here will stop this thought process on their own and ask the "why" questions to allow the proper understanding and learning or learn about a different business model that would make this make sense.

These are the same people with the same mentality that can't for the life of them understand how I can make $3,000 - $4,500 a day in the school market at elementary schools. Context is king and opens a whole new world and a more completeness of learning.

It is also important as Danny mentions when something is beyond us or out of our element to not try to go toe to toe with someone who does know, understand, and practice such content. It's one thing to ask questions, but to try to contribute as someone one knows nothing about it is just crazy and distracting to others seriously trying to learn.

As far as "inventing a person" I get this and understand why some choose to do so. It is so much easier for others to talk about you rather than you talking about yourself. Look at how many times I use a personal perspective to establish a fact or position and several here take that other than as intended believing I am constantly here soliciting for new coaching students. It is always better to have someone else speak about you or on your behalf. This is why I have always had an agent in my companies that represent me, do the Sales Performance/Presentations and sell me as it works much better than me selling myself in first person. They can say things and create a context I can't about myself. I could go around talking about all eight major positions I have held in the entertainment industry and it sounds like I am boasting, when in reality I may be using it to establish positioning for some information I am about to share. But again, it is now how others may will interpret it.

Going back to a previous post, this is why some will choose to operate as a company or an agency to operate from this position.

Even though Danny may not operate on a single booking basis or may not operate the way the default model performers do or the way other business models do, he does book other acts so he is familiar with and knowledgeable also from the position of agent or producer rather than just the artist/performer. As agents we are always hearing from performers seeking bookings for their schedules while also fulfilling the important needs from our clients.

Good points and thoughts.
Mindpro
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Quote:
On Oct 4, 2022, Andy Young wrote:
I don't normally talk about the other businesses. When I do, I don't reference them by name or what they are. It only comes up in select conversations. It mostly comes up when the customer is asking how my show works compared to other entertainment. It is part of the education for them.


Well that good to hear. So much can be done through the education process. While products can be one way to increase revenues, always explore other possibilities and opportunities to do so as well. Quality is just as important as Professionalism.
Fedora
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Mindpro, you brought up an good distinction between what danny
and some others does with one or a comparatively small number of clients,

i recall you telling me 87 percent of your bookings are repeat bookings,
one reason I can think you or someone would do this is "customer
acquisition cost".

do you find the customer acquisition cost to be higher at all with
these clients you want to have a long term relationship with, vs.
say, constantly marketing for corporate or some other high end work?

(sorry I'm dominating the green space a bit, but I find this thread to
be a positive one)
Dannydoyle
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Customer acquisition is orders of magnitude more expensive than customer retention.

Think of it this way. We have done 33 shows a week for 15 years minus Covid stuff. In that time my marketing budget to get those shows was zero. My need to reach out to them to keep top of mind or whatever else they want to call it is zero. I spend nothing to keep them other than to just do a great job and great customer relationships.

The work is guaranteed every year.

This is why I dislike intensely the one night business model. You end up in constant customer acquisition mode for such a huge portion of your life. Earlier in my career I preferred to work with 20 or so clubs and work them twice a year. Some you do for a couple weeks. Again cost of acquisition is zero once you are doing it that way.

I also absolutely know the conditions I’m going to walk into every time. No surprises. (Well at Caribbean resorts that is not always true but close.) Again you are not generally at home much if at all so that lifestyle isn’t for everyone.

Sorry to diverge so much. The point is acquisition is far more expensive that retention.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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That answered the question in general. Specifically if acquiring a long term customer is more expensive, it isn’t if you set all your customer experience goals in that direction.

This also leads to a point I always make. You need to know your strengths and weaknesses. I knew straight up my weakness was wanting to be selling. So my business model removed as much of that as possible at all phases of my career. The few years I spent doing one night gigs I never sold many of them but had relationships with others who did. One of the most important parts of this whole performer lifestyle is sales. That was where I simply didn’t want to spend much of my time. So I constantly found ways around it even in the beginning.

Doing the things the way everyone does them is a great way to get to where everyone else is.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Fedora
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Thanks danny, good to hear you've gotten your customer acquisition cost to zero,
that has got to have saved you many thousands of dollars over the years,
not to mention the other perks you mentioned.
Dannydoyle
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It is huge over the 15 year period. I mean some theaters pay 75 cents off every dollar to put a butt every 18 I’v inches. Imagine that closer to 15 cents.

Theater shows are a different animal and I’m just making a point as to just how high acquisition costs can run.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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Quote:
On Oct 6, 2022, Dannydoyle wrote:
Customer acquisition is orders of magnitude more expensive than customer retention.

Think of it this way. We have done 33 shows a week for 15 years minus Covid stuff. In that time my marketing budget to get those shows was zero. My need to reach out to them to keep top of mind or whatever else they want to call it is zero. I spend nothing to keep them other than to just do a great job and great customer relationships.


I Love this as it shows, unlike what every online guru tells you, and every magician marketing book or course tells you, this was also done without any "social proof," "no testimonials", "no SEO," "no public website," "no social media," and no bells and whistles.

I'm the same way yet with a completely different business model than yours. Very good for thought.
Dannydoyle
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I’ve told you this but may as well say it here. It was also done without a business card! No joke.

I’ve set up pretty much every deal in my life this way.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Oct 6, 2022, Fedora wrote:
Mindpro, you brought up an good distinction between what danny
and some others does with one or a comparatively small number of clients,

i recall you telling me 87 percent of your bookings are repeat bookings,
one reason I can think you or someone would do this is "customer
acquisition cost".

do you find the customer acquisition cost to be higher at all with
these clients you want to have a long term relationship with, vs.
say, constantly marketing for corporate or some other high end work?

(sorry I'm dominating the green space a bit, but I find this thread to
be a positive one)

You are not dominating anything.

It is also great to be able to have this uninterrupted stream of information on this thread. When information is not being ground to a halt as it always is with egos and agendas things can actually be discussed. While there is no one right way to do most things, there are also a LOT of VERY BAD ideas. Finally being able to cut through the noise and the nonsense and talk about actual business being one in the 21st century is refreshing.

It should be noted that the amount of real information in just 5 pages is FAR more than the 14 page back and forth nonsense that always happens.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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Quote:
On Oct 6, 2022, Fedora wrote:
Mindpro, you brought up an good distinction between what danny
and some others does with one or a comparatively small number of clients,

i recall you telling me 87 percent of your bookings are repeat bookings,
one reason I can think you or someone would do this is "customer
acquisition cost".

do you find the customer acquisition cost to be higher at all with
these clients you want to have a long term relationship with, vs.
say, constantly marketing for corporate or some other high end work?

(sorry I'm dominating the green space a bit, but I find this thread to
be a positive one)



Great question. Customer acquisition cost, lifetime customer value, and other such analytics, while important, they differ quite a bit from conventional business. Its funny because I get many coaching students that have heard these terms or learned about these things from watching T.V.'s Shark Tank. I'm not saying they don't apply in entertainment business, as they do, but I don't think it is not near a big of deal as "investors" in conventional types business approach it.

To me, it is just part of the business model you chose and the markets you choose to serve. It is just the cost of doing business. I don't get too hung up on it for just the reason you mentioned. If I had a model where it was extremely high it would be different.

My customer acquisition is also mostly zero. What I do spend is not in the way most think of customer acquisition. If it were up to me I would just work off of repeat bookings and clients and not care at all about new business at all. Now this is just me, where I am at in my business, and after what I've worked hard for decades to achieve. My model was always to be able to coast, sit back and enjoy once I hit my 50s and enjoy the benefits.

However, it is not wise for the scaling, longevity and future growth of my business, so I still try to keep 15% or so new business coming into the pipeline so there is always new blood in the process.

Fortunately for me, I am very well established in my primary market. In many areas of the country I am the top entertainer and or/speaker in my market. When people think of wanting or needing my type of presentations or performances, they immediately think of and want me. No one else in my markets does what I do or offers what I offer. So they don't think "We need someone like Mindpro," they think "we want Mindpro!"

It has taken a great deal of work and positioning to achieve this status and is nothing I take for granted. I now am simply reaping the rewards of the previous 40 years of hard work and efforts.

New customers come from this business operational process I have created so there is no real customer acquisition cost to it. Now I can hear some of my naysayers saying "but you appear and conferences, expos, and conventions all over the country in your market, so there is an expense and ultimate cost for that which parlays into a customer acquisition cost. But not really. I do these for one reason and one reason only...to maintain my status. You may hear us talk about getting to the point where we have, being at the top of our markets, but rarely does anyone talk about maintaining that level of operation and status. Remember, there are others that would love to dethrone me, copycats that try to do what I do (I've told the story of my showing up to do a showcase event before and long story short having to sue someone who tried to copy by act right in front of me, down to the very lines I speak, the traveling music I use, and the clothes I wore.) So maintaining your business at such a level is what your operations, branding, and positioning shifts to once initial success is attained.

So while it could be said I'm paying the expense at these events to gain new clients, the truth is even if I decided not to accept any new clients, we would still participate in the events we do to have our presence and maintain our image, reputation, and status.

Any customer acquisition incurred is absorbed by the business model and the formula we use and expect from every new client and booking we receive. It sounds funny, but we actually make them pay for this themselves when all is said and done. It is built into our business operational system and business model.

Now for most performers using the typical default business model, this, to me, is just part of doing business. You need to pay for your office, your electric, your liability and equipment insurance, and your customer acquisition cost. Sure try to keep it as affordable as possible. But knowing you are seeking a long-term relationship with your clients the actual acquisition cost continues to go down with every future booking you receive. Amortized over time it is next to nothing.

In reality I have found long-term relationship clients actually seem to have a lower acquisition cost than one-off clients. Now I will say corporate clients, especially high-end corporate clients have some of the largest acquisition costs out there. I hear so many magicians and performers say they want to work the corporate market, yet few can really give me any real or valid reasons as to why, other than they pay very well. Do they? Do they really? Are you truly aware of what they corporate market is? How they operate? And the expense involved to truly get onto their playing field? First off, consumer marketing and operations approaches will not work, so do you really understand professional markets and everything it takes to access this market? And I'm not even speaking about the high-end corporate market. There are so many incorrect and incomplete perceptions based on not actual real information for most, other than just the general magic community (false) beliefs that the corporate market, theaters, the college market, and cruise ships are the top paying markets. It's crazy.

So corporate markets have some of the highest customer acquisition costs of most popular markets. They cost of entry and playing is quite high to truly serve the corporate market. Now I'm not talking about the false magicians belief of "doing a couple company holiday parties" is working the corporate market - its not.
Ken Northridge
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Quote:
On Oct 6, 2022, Dannydoyle wrote:
Customer acquisition is orders of magnitude more expensive than customer retention.


I’d like to share how I learned this.

Back in 1981, while at my business school, JCPenney, (LOL) I was working for about minimum wage in the sporting goods department. A customer wanted to return a pair of shoes. They were worn, beat up and dirty. She had the receipt and I noted they were bought 6 months ago. I said, “I’m sorry there is no warranty for these shoes.” She asked to see a manager. The manager looked at the shoes and said, “I’m sorry you were disappointed with this product. I will give you full credit toward another pair of shoes.”

I was shocked! What a scam!

A few years later I found myself in the management trainee program and I learned how much money JCPenney spent on getting customers to shop there. Between multipage color circulars that appear in the paper every week to television ads, the money they spent was astronomical.

Then it hit me. It only cost the company about $10 to give that lady a new pair of shoes. A current customer retained for $10.

In business, customer satisfaction is almost everything.
"Love is the real magic." -Doug Henning
www.KenNorthridge.com
TomBoleware
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Ken, I could tell similar stories and learned a long time ago that a customer's value shouldn’t be based on ONE sale. Customer loyalty is earned by you consistently meeting and exceeding the customer's expectations. Or as I like to say, the fear of loss shouldn’t always be greater than the desire for gain.

Tom
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https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/

When you come to the point where you have no need to impress anybody, your freedom will begin.
Fedora
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Thanks Mindpro for the response, interesting that you appear at
expos to maintain status instead of getting new work necessarily,

I guess it's kind of like how everyone knows who "walmart" is,
but they spend on ads anyway.

As for the corporate market, I'm aware the customer acquisition is high,
which is why I used it as the example.

i believe some folks put a certain "prestige" to working the markets you
listed, even with the fact (as you said) it's not necessarily more
profitable, due to the costs.
Dannydoyle
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Walmart makes more money than Nordstrom. By a whole lot!!!!! So the perception isn’t necessarily the reality of prestige.

In my view working at all and getting money to pay for what you need or want is prestigious enough. It isn’t easy at any level. I admire anyone who can do it at any level.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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It occurs to me that I know quite a few of kids show magicians who make quite a bit more than the majority of corporate magicians. (A silly term in my view anyhow.)

When you do the things Mindoro is always yapping about (Even in person mind you!) and maximize the streams of income possible from children’s entertainment it can be quite lucrative and mostly weekend work. This way you can have a job that gets health benefits and all that goes with normal gainful employment.

You can do 5-8 shows on a weekend and end up bringing in a hundred grand once it is all said and done! I know plenty of guys who do exactly this and the “prestige“ is plenty high trust me!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Andy Young
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Quote:
On Oct 7, 2022, Dannydoyle wrote:
It occurs to me that I know quite a few of kids show magicians who make quite a bit more than the majority of corporate magicians. (A silly term in my view anyhow.)

When you do the things Mindoro is always yapping about (Even in person mind you!) and maximize the streams of income possible from children’s entertainment it can be quite lucrative and mostly weekend work. This way you can have a job that gets health benefits and all that goes with normal gainful employment.

You can do 5-8 shows on a weekend and end up bringing in a hundred grand once it is all said and done! I know plenty of guys who do exactly this and the “prestige“ is plenty high trust me!

It has always annoyed me how kid shows are looked down on, but if done right we sow the seeds for when they get older booking magic for events.
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I have always heard that claim but never seen it done to fruition. Unless you are talking about planning for other children’s events then sure. But no corporate booking agent or anyone I’ve ever dealt with on that level would think of hiring the guy who did hippity hop rabbits at his 8th birthday party as entertainment for an adult function.

It is doubtful that it works that way. But just doing the kids events themselves is enough.

And people looking down on kids show guys says more about those looking down than who they are looking down on if you ask me. Pretty insecure it seems.

Fact is I could never do kids shows. It is not a skill I possess. I would starve as opposed to the hundred grand thing. No kidding.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Andy Young
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Quote:
On Oct 7, 2022, Dannydoyle wrote:
I have always heard that claim but never seen it done to fruition. Unless you are talking about planning for other children’s events then sure. But no corporate booking agent or anyone I’ve ever dealt with on that level would think of hiring the guy who did hippity hop rabbits at his 8th birthday party as entertainment for an adult function.

It is doubtful that it works that way. But just doing the kids events themselves is enough.

And people looking down on kids show guys says more about those looking down than who they are looking down on if you ask me. Pretty insecure it seems.

Fact is I could never do kids shows. It is not a skill I possess. I would starve as opposed to the hundred grand thing. No kidding.


Look at how many people became engineers because of Star Trek.

I have heard from my clients that they wanted to book a magic show (family/kids) partly because of the memory they had of a magic show in their youth.

Maybe that isn't a norm. I just think that the spark for wanting more has to be brought from somewhere.
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