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123majik123 Regular user nowhere 180 Posts |
Okay so in your opinion whats the point of giving the spectator a blank deck to look at a card. If you were just using suggestion to do a pyschological force why bother with the deck at all????
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RG Allen New user 8 Posts |
Well, exactly.
Why on earth would an audience think that the blank deck served any purpose other than to secretly show the person a real card?!!! |
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Gordon Fisher Regular user Derby, England 193 Posts |
You might prefer to use the "w4nker deck" then
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Smoking Camel Inner circle UK 1039 Posts |
RG Allen.
I cant see what you mean by your posts? The effect: a spectator sees a card in a blank deck that you suggest to him. I appreciate your comments that they may think that there is a card in the deck but that would mean that your performance of the effect failed. Likewise if you can't convince an audience that your really reading their mind instead of using a C***** t*** then they will think that you just read it. If the effect from the audience point of view is one of you just suggesting a card to the person then what is the point of the blank deck? Why not just use a pyschological force or a normal force with a deck and a prediction??? The blank deck serves a puropse and that is the spectator sees a card in a blank deck. If presented properly the audience will believe the wholedeck is blank and thus the spectator was caused to hallucinate a card or whatever presentation you are using. If you want, you could even throw in a deck switch and give them another blank deck to keep.
I no longer smoke camel cigarettes.
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Lord Of The Horses Inner circle 5406 Posts |
Ok, I can say that I agree with the various points of view to an extent.
The premise of "mind influence" beyond the effect MIND CONTROL can be very strong (and this *IS* the real gem in my opinion, not the gaffed deck because you can perform this same effect with just two u*********d decks and one par**** in***) I disagree however with the extreme points made by DarkThought (apparently a proud defender of anything which has been touched by Spelmann or Nardi) because not all of the effects are the same and not all the effects are so easy to deconstruct and backtrack. There are effects and effects and, while I'm writing this, at least five or six different effects from Maven and Cassidy which are a mixture of principles merging into one single revelation come to my mind. Those are not so easy to backtrack at all. Also, what RG Allen expressed, maybe a little bit rudely, would probably (?) be the most logical thing laymen could think about that. Mind you, RG Allen does not claim that lay people will say "Oh... it could be a s******* deck!" or something like that... but SIMPLY that lay people could think you were able with your finger-dexterity to hide a card amongst the blanks. It's at least a (remote?) POSSIBILITY, aren't you aware of that?
Then you'll rise right before my eyes, on wings that fill the sky, like a phoenix rising!
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RG Allen New user 8 Posts |
(Lord of the Horses - thank you for your balanced reply. I appreciate that.)
I have stated my viewpoint quite strongly, I admit (hopefully not in a rude way) because I happen to hold that view about this effect. I was rather hoping it would make people think, and post some interesting replies. I stand by my view. And no - it does not mean that mentalism should never use props. But mentalism has effects that are strong and effects that are not very strong at all. Mind Control is of the latter type, in my view. People can disagree if they like, but for goodness sake make a valid argument. |
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Smoking Camel Inner circle UK 1039 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-01-13 11:09, RG Allen wrote: Each to his own I guess. I can see exatly where you are coming from AG but I would just say that I have performed this a number of times with a hallucination presentation and not once been questioned by it. In fact, I've had people ask what I would do if the spec didn't see a card. Which is why I guess its down to performer being able to successfully convine the audience thathe is doing what he says he's doing. I guess though if the audience didn't belive the perfomrers claimed ability of whatever then all effects would go down the same route as you have described thus as Bob Cassidy says, "Any effect is plausable in the right context." But if you don't think mind control is plausable then okay.
I no longer smoke camel cigarettes.
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Dark Thought 13 Regular user Washington D.C. 122 Posts |
I do like some of Alakazam's stuff but equally dislike some also. Zenner Tech was not for me in the slightest nor do I like Hierloom, but prefer Kollosal Killer. What I like and do not like is irrelevant. As I said before ANY mentalism effect can be deconstructed in the way RG Allen discribes. The blank deck in Mind Control is used to convince the spectator she holds a regular deck as she has seen earlier but is switched for a blank deck which she is unaware of that is way the deck is in play from an audience stand point. The audience does not challenge this but feel they are in on a strange demonstration. End of story.
If the effect however was.... "I will use suggestion to influence a card in your mind," then granted RG Allen would have a point. But the routine is that the person on stage handles a regular deck, taking in all of the information from the cards, they close their eyes and the deck is openly switched for a blank deck. Then under the premise of some verbal nonsense the blank deck is handed to the person who is instructed to open their eyes and see a card. The deck is in existence to portray to the person that it is the same deck they handled earlier. If we apply the thoughts that RG Allen has then why would we use a book? Why don't they just think of any word in an imaginary book. Why write it down? Why choose a card from an actual deck, etc.? If RG Allen had said, "What is a valid way to justify the deck?", then fair comment and we would have a discussion on rationales for the blank deck, but he didn't. He said, "Weak effect... period!" Which is not the case.
"I love the one with the plastic thumb!"
Someone who has seen a s*** magician |
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Winnes Elite user 473 Posts |
Quote:
The question you really should ask yourself is: Why on earth would an audience suspect you would be secretly showing the person a real card? The answer is, they wouldn't. Or, shouldn't. Isn't the effect that you have suggested a card that the spectator imagines that they see on the blank card? Surely the premise is enough justification for the cards. |
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Smoking Camel Inner circle UK 1039 Posts |
Yes, that's how I percieved the effect to be. Unless I've drastically missed something and my audience is secretly laughing?
I no longer smoke camel cigarettes.
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bobser Inner circle 4178 Posts |
In all fairness I would have to say that RG Allen has a point. My intellect completely understands him saying that if I can suggest to someone something I wouldn't need any prop at all. (albeit the main method in that casewould have to be some form of pre-show).
However, at the end of the day I have to listen to some of the guys in here who say they get great reactions. This would have me conclude that although I understand RG, a person with strong presentation skills will always make it seem like a miracle is being created. However, this makes me immediately agree with what someone else said. Are we now talking about a) the trick, or b) the performer? And for what it's worth, isn't this incredibly similar to a top change between a sitter and the rest of the audience?
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
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Smoking Camel Inner circle UK 1039 Posts |
Also The effect in mind control is that one, the spectator sees a card on a blank card (hallucinates or whatever) and you are able to suggest the specific card to them. If it was just an effect in suggesting a card via a pyschological force then yes no need for the deck.
I guess it is similar to a top change between spectator and audience member. However mind control allows you to not really have to touch the cards. I can see RG allen's point about suggestion and no need for a prop, and thus a weak effect but suggesting the right card isn't all mind control is about. Therefore, I find the use of the blank deck to be part of the overall effect from the audience point of view. (The script supplied does have a point as far as I remember, where after the spectator has looked at a card and remembered it, you turn around and ask them if they genuinely saw a card in the deck. you later asked them if the card they saw seemed real or imagined, you then show the whole deck to be blank again.)
I no longer smoke camel cigarettes.
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RG Allen New user 8 Posts |
I agree that the effect is carried on its presentation (as all effects). I think the presentation I saw was not that great, which has coloured my thinking, but my gut instinct is that this effect is talked up to be rather more of a miracle than it is probably usually seen to be. Just my view.
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magicusb Inner circle 1135 Posts |
It still smells of a card trick in a mentalism show. There are very few, if any playing card effects that fit in a mentalism show. Tossed out deck being possibly one of the few. This same idea should be done with other objects than cards.
regards Dick Brooks
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Decomposed Eternal Order High Desert 12059 Posts |
I am curious if anyone performing this skips the use of a regular deck and starts out with the Mind Control deck from the beginning?
In theory, this is similiar to Memory Loss (Sankey) but I feel more believable from the reviews I have read. Regards, Candini
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themindreader Loyal user 254 Posts |
I don't, but I'll often give out the gaffed deck to be examined. Provided that you instruct the spectator to examine the deck in the correct way there is no problem with this,
Simon |
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ALEXANDRE Inner circle 3024 Posts |
I use the Mind Control deck straight. In fact I only use half of it, why have a full deck of blank cards? Watch me perform it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sN-RpiZNyI
HERE'S A SECRET ...
http://www.lybrary.com/mystic-alexandre-m-354.html |
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Roger Kelly Inner circle Kent, England 3332 Posts |
Nice Alexandre. Good soundrack too - Kashmir, brilliant!
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Decomposed Eternal Order High Desert 12059 Posts |
Yeah, I agree, Kashmir excellent choice of soundtrack at the end Alexandre. Half of deck is what my audience expects out me anyways.
Thanks Simon for the tip, I have it on order.
ClICK HERE for HOW TO MAKE TRANSITION FROM MAGICIAN TO MOTIVATIONAL SPEAKER WORLD NEW BOOK!
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chichi711 Inner circle 5810 Posts |
Is there a deck of normal cards that work in the same force? Meaning this deck, but with actual cards?
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