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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 17, 2022, TomBoleware wrote: How many birthday parties did you book Tom? I tell you quite often people came into the magic shop and booked a magician for a kids birthday party specifically TO SURPRISE the child! MORE OFTEN THAN NOT as a matter of fact. Entertainment at the kids party is often a surprise. It is that simple. And this is something I HAVE EXPERIENCE IN from 10 years at the largest magic shop in Chicago. So stop. Is it definitive and the absolute answer? No. It is one experience.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 17, 2022, danfreed wrote: People who say this have never tried to field dress a deer.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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danfreed Inner circle West Chester PA 1354 Posts |
Doyle, I know nothing about field dressing a deer, but I'm not talking about that and you know it, and if you are kidding around that would be fine if it weren't for your other behavior. I've been a full time kids entertainer for 30 years, in addition to having a family oriented entertainment agency for 10 years, and I owned a costume and magic shop also. Between myself and booking others and moonbounces, I'm guessing I've booked birthday entertainment maybe 12,000-20,000 times. I also did advertising sales for a few years. I made many mistakes but I know a lot and have a lot of good ideas, one of which is that you, Danny (good name BTW), should relax and take it down a notch in general. You remind me of that Python skit where a guy goes into an "argument service" and pays to have an argument. I'm not saying you are wrong about anything or don't have good advice, just that the way you talk to people on here could use an overhaul. I'm probably wasting my time telling you that though, and I'm not going to discuss that further.
The overwhelming majority of kids party bookings are not a surprise, and the kids are usually involved in the decision, often shop around with the parents, and often watch the videos, if there is a video. Yes, personal relationships are a great idea and very helpful, but you can be quite successful without a lot of effort in that regard if that's how you choose to do it, as long as other things are in place. The Great Zucchini hangs out after most shows for 10 or 15 minutes so he can make small talk with the various parents, that's part of why he gets a lot of work. I used to do a lot more phone talk with clients 15 or 20 years ago when people were less into electronic communication, but people are used to emails/texts and a more streamlined process for stuff, and I just prefer to keep that to a minimum, so that can work well also, depending how you do it.
Dan Freed
AKA The Amazing Spaghetti https://www.magiciandanfreed.com/birthday-party-magician-for-kids http://thecaricatureartist.com http://danieljayfreed.com |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
OHHH my other behavior? Get over yourself it was a joke.
Is part of my behavior SAYING THAT YOU HAVE A VALID BUSINESS MODEL? I hope so. Because I have several times. Please go back and read what I wrote. Funny about "argument services". Is it only me that qualifies? What about others intentionally baiting? No no no it is just me right?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
This is exactly why it is hard to have business discussions with kids magicians as I said in the start of this. They operate in a very limiyed bubble of which they are completely content and comfortable with (good for them) and for whatever reason take offense or don't want to participate in any type of business discussions beyond their bubble. It is such a shame.
I'm also not going to get into a pis***g match with Tom or real kids magicians here. I am willing to show the amount of contracts for kids bookings in the last 30 days, year, 5 years, etc., and put them up against Tom or others here. Dan, I understand your position but regardless Tom is offering (very poor) opinions in a business forum being presented as fact. This should be called out as we have several here wanting to learn from this and as you know, there is enough to consider and determine in reality without the need to cloud the matter with opinions from a non performing, non-entertainment business wannabe. Also you have mentioned now at least twice Dan, you've stated things such as about "not wanting to go back and forth and sell people, etc, been there done that." "I'm also not a big fan of squeezing every penny out of people, even though so many businesses do that. I don't have to haggle or do any real selling, nor would I. Don't want the headaches, stress, or hassle." "and don't want to jump through hoops, get sold, or play games, and we find it annoying when people do that." "If it's really important to make every single penny you can, then you may need to do things more or less like Mindpro says. Just to be clear in case you have misunderstood what I've discussed here over the years...I do not teach or lead anyone to do these type sof things. I do not believe in selling people, jumping through hoops to get business, no back and forth, no haggling, squeezing every penny out of people, or any real selling at all. Anyone that knows me or my system knows I don't encourage any of that in any way. When done properly you should never have to sell anyone on anything. Even "add-ons" or "upsells" as someone mentioned earlier, I never suggests selling anything of the sort. If you are having to sell someone to get business you are doing something massively wrong. I just wanted to make that clear as you have mentioned this twice now like I encourage or condone selling to the client in a way to get them to buy something they don't want, or to get them to spend any more than they want or need to. It is very low pressure, actually far less pressure that those trying to sell hands off with their website. That is a much harder sell that anything I do or teach. |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Mindpro, I’m sure you have done more shows than me in the past few years. Big deal. That proves nothing.
You and Danny don’t want me here because I stand up for myself, all the part-timers, and kidshow magicians out there. While you and all your shills here see this section as your classroom, it's not. Like I’ve told you before you should get your own place to sell your services. This is a public forum where everyone is welcome. Now get over yourself, and if you really want to help around here try doing it without putting others down. You’re a smart man but your ego speaks louder than your words making them fall on deaf ears. Nobody likes hearing you bad mouth all the other magicians the way you do. I have never said a crossword to anybody here except you and Danny. At times I feel ashamed for doing it but you two deserve every word of it. Man I love this place Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Tom funny how the thread you started has ZERO responses isn’t it?
I don’t care if you stand up for yourself. I don’t want you posting nonsense. Stop assigning things to me that are only true in your head. Nobody needs to stand up for part timers or kid show guys. I have NEVER disparaged them. Only pointed out that it is a different mindset and that is true. You NEVER work and post nonsense. Big difference. Tom it is fire prevention month.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
What shills? (Here you go making stuff up again!) What services do I sell here? You are the one that pushed your daycare book in every post. Standing up for your poor advice and opinions doesn't make the right. No one is bad-mouthing other magicians here, only you because of the imaginary stuff you claim others say that has never been said.
Trust me, what I share on here doesn't fall on deaf ears, don't kid yourself, or I wouldn't waste the time. I get thanks daily for what I present here whether you like it or not, whether you like the tome or not. It is being offered as free information, no one can dictate how and what I choose to share here. I help others with real information. Let's look at the greater issue here. Once again, you have to do this in every thread here. It ruins so many great discussions. Now others than just Danny and myself have asked you to stop but you just continue. You can't stop. |
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Ken Northridge Inner circle Atlantic City, NJ 2392 Posts |
For the record, I’ve had many bookings in which the child has made the decision on who and what to book. This sometimes gets annoying. One time I had a client call and cancel because her 5-year-old child, changed her mind!
Quote:
On Oct 17, 2022, Dannydoyle wrote: So, what’s so awful about price shopping? The overwhelming majority of people price shop, even a certain percentage of ‘rich’ people price shop. Lets say 80% of people (its probably more) price shop. What’s wrong with the goal of being at the top wage earners of the price shoppers’ market? I am rarely booked by the super elite and have never performed in a celebrity’s home, because I purposely positioned myself to be attractive to the 80% in the middle. There are more than enough prospects in 80% of the market. Being in the price shopper’s market has its disadvantages, of course. I lose bookings almost every day because of a lower price, and who knows how many I lose because I post prices on my web site. I also lose bookings from the super-rich because I’m not expensive enough. All I can tell you is I have multiple bookings every weekend and have just about as much work as I want and can handle, and it has been this way for many years. Quote:
On Oct 17, 2022, danfreed wrote: I agree 100% Dan. I could probably charge more too, but there's not a better feeling than knowing that you’ve totally satisfied your client…and the tips aren’t bad either.
"Love is the real magic." -Doug Henning
www.KenNorthridge.com |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Ken for years guys have been coming in here complaining about price shoppers. If you want to cater to that and be king of that then have at it. Not one single thing single thing wrong with that. Someone has to be the best at it. You know what you are getting into, you are happy with it and are an adult and are making an adult decision. You are not trying to change it while participating in it. If you’re good it’s your company and you are doing the work. You know there is a different way and actively chose this. Cool.
Unless Dan thinks this is some of my “behavior” he seems to disapprove of.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 17, 2022, Mindpro wrote: Mindpro, I want you to read this one post here and explain why you are constantly saying that it is me who is giving bad advice when you clearly don’t have a clue when it comes to kids and parents. Is this the kind of crap you teach all those students of yours you claim to have? Sometimes I think Danny is the only student you have. And you have wrapped his mind so bad its pitifully. Now please explain to me and all here how this one thing is just something I made up in my head. And let me quote what you said again: (quote) “No the child has nothing to do in the process. They don't watch the promo video or have anything to do with it. The promo video is not made for them or shouldn't be. I have booked thousands of kids shows and never, not once, was a kid involved in the process or did a mom or dad ever say anything about the kid seeing the video. Crazy. A child does not make the final decision, absolutely crazy! Also, the child has nothing to do in the process. They don't watch the promo video or have anything to do with it. The promo video is not made for them or shouldn't be. I have booked thousand of kids shows and never, not once, was a kid involved in the process or did a mom or dad ever say anything about the kid seeing the video. Crazy. A child does not make the final decision, absolutely crazy! “ (end of quote) Did you just make this up to make me look bad? Go ahead and explain, I'm waiting. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Dan and Ken, Thank you both for coming here and sharing your thoughts on kid shows. I really appreciate it and I know others do too.
I’m sorry that you have to wade through all the stuff here to do it. But I promise you it is appreciated by many. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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danfreed Inner circle West Chester PA 1354 Posts |
Thanks Tom. And I know Mindpro and Danny have plenty of good advice for people, the problem is how they discuss it sometimes. Sometimes when people position themselves as experts in any field they can't handle it when someone says they are wrong or states another opinion or fact, and can't discuss it without making it personal, etc, and if I've done that then I apologize. The one thing that Mindpro said that is definitely wrong, unless I misunderstood what he meant, is the thing about kids not being involved in the booking decision. Not sure how he got that idea, but I suggest he talk to more experienced kidshow specialists, outside of the few on this thread or the inexperienced ones who he consults with (I'm sure he consults with experienced ones also), and see what they say. Ultimately the parent makes the decision and steers the process, but the child is frequently very involved, looking at websites and videos, and is very influential.
I have checked out many other similar entertainers websites, and many don't have a demo video, I think they are missing the boat on that one unless they have plenty of work anyway and don't need it, or have specific reasons not to do it, which is fine of course. I also see plenty of bad/mediocre demos that may not really help, or may make it less likely for people to book because they get a bad impression. Of course a demo is only one piece of the puzzle, and many don't watch them, or watch with the sound off, or watch for 5 seconds. As far as the website in general, some people barely look at it or just look at the Google local/Yelp listing or whatever, but some people spend a lot of time looking at my site and are very careful and thorough shoppers. Some people don't spend more than 10 seconds before contacting me because they are just in an initial shopping phase and don't even know if I'm available, etc so they contact me, see if I'm open and get some info, then go back and look at my site in more detail before making a decision. So I suggest gearing the site to both quick shoppers and careful shoppers.
Dan Freed
AKA The Amazing Spaghetti https://www.magiciandanfreed.com/birthday-party-magician-for-kids http://thecaricatureartist.com http://danieljayfreed.com |
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
Yes, I've had parents also tell me that they watched the videos on my website with their child, as a part of making their decision to hire me.
--- When I talked about getting Google reviews previously, I was specifically referring to "Google My Business", and not other review sites like Yelp. I only mention this because Dan talked about them both interchangeably in one of his posts. --- Unless I'm misreading some of the posts, it's back to the old discussion of customers buying based on "price" vs. buying based on "value". (As a performer who posts my rates online, I believe that my customers are buying my shows based on "value".) This has been brought up on several threads previously. For example, in this post from 2006, I state, "If I remember right from Jeffrey's book, the percentages are like this: 30-40% buy on price, the other 60-70% buy on value. You can convince them of value through word of mouth, online sales evidence, etc. Talking with them on the phone is only one way to convince them of value." (Referring to stats I read in Jeffery Gitomer's book, "The Little Red Book of Selling.") ---- One other thing that happens when you post your show options and rates online, is that you change your "position" with the customer. When they call to book a show, they are then a "buyer" making first contact. They know they want something, and have already made a positive buying decision. If they are calling because you haven't posted your rates online, they are then in a position where they know that the performer is a "salesman" ("seller") trying to get them to hire the show / sell them their service. And sometimes, a prospect is even a little combative or defensive in that position (is this salesman going to talk me into / pressure me into something I don't want, or talk me into spending more money than I have to spend, force me into deciding right now, etc.) - Donald
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 17, 2022, danfreed wrote: This is a great example of how readers here take the information presented and read and accept it only as it applies to them, not the greater picture or context of how it is intended. Yes, perhaps you and others have misunderstood what I was saying. This is also a great example of those operating from a "me" perspective - what they think, feel, believe, perceive, and want, versus an industry perspective or a larger perspective than just them. I regularly have explained how agencies, event planners, and others often learn much more about inquiring prospects, their events, their interests, what they're looking for, and what they definitely do not want or or looking for. This is a prime example of the differences. We have had a office and showroom in each market we operate in since the early 1980s (up until abut 4 or 5 years ago.) We do this so prospects and clients can come in, meet with us, see our operations, view demos, see what we have available, compare different performers, and become educated on how to properly research and shop for entertainment and explore possible options. I simply said in over 3,000 kids party bookings, not once was a kid involved in this process. Never did any of the adults bring a kid in, never did any kid ever see a promo video, or never was the kid there for the parent to say "so, Johnny what do you think? Would you like the Amazing, Wonderful, Know-It-All, Full-Of-Opinions and Rah-Rah Support, and haven't performed in decades Mr. Magical Tom at your birthday party?" This has never happened in over 50 years, not once. Often it is either a mom and/or dad, but in reality usually a mom and her sister, best friend or possibly the mom's mom that called or came into the showroom to inquire. Regardless, no kid was ever there as part of the process. Since over 83% of them booked onsite, it is safe to say the kid was not ever part of the process. That is all I was saying. Now I understand most kids performers don't have a showroom, video library, and don't represent multiple acts and attractions, don't have 125 kids performers to offer for their event, and so on, they only have themselves and whatever services they offer. Again prospects open up and share much more with us than they do with a solo magician or performer which gives us a great advantage. Many times they aren't interested in a magician these days as there are may other things they are more interested in than just a magic show. Magic has had a much lower interest rate than in years gone by. Now I have had this discussion regularly with all 125 of our magicians, strolling performers, stage shows, etc. and rarely is the kid involved in the booking process to them as well. Now maybe what you have said is true, maybe at home before ever talking to us they have gone on youtube and watched some videos, I can see that happening, but that doesn't mean the kid is deciding what the adults are going to do to create the party they have in their minds. Maybe they're considering the kids preferences but based on our experience and that of those kids performers I work with this does not be a big factor by any means. Now again, we do not have videos out there for kids to see either. This model has worked fine for us for decades now. If they did involve the kid that tells me they are not considering things such as value, the other guests, professionalism, and so on. No, if a kid were to see a video with a live rabbit, regardless of how good or professional the magician was, they would want him (just based on the bunny.) So do I think the parents/adults I speak to would just book the guy with the bunny? No way. They have much greater concerns about their event than what an uninformed, kids wants based on a video. The best I could see them saying when they contact us is "do you have magicians that have a real bunny as part of their show?" But I wouldn't say the kid is involved in the booking process because of this. |
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Andy Young Special user Jersey Shore, PA 813 Posts |
Mindpro you said on page two
"Also the child has nothing to do in the process" I understand why people may be confused with what you said. Here is a question then: Are you not going off of a me perspective in this situation? There have been a few people that have contradicted your stance now. Who or what is the industry standard? How can we look at it as a whole and not follow a person's steps if there is divergent information? |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Is it “possible” that those who book shows based on price are the ones with the children’s involvement generally speaking?
Is it “possible” that there is no rule across the board? I guess not. But rather than get caught up the minutiae of things that mean nothing and hurt feelings about how something is said wouldn’t it be better to talk about the money of it? I mean Dan and Ken are both adults in the industry for quite some time ( As I have said more than once.) and have made a conscious decision to operate in the price is the only consideration model. Ken wants to be the king of price shoppers and is happy with that. There is not one single thing wrong with operating that way and I respect that. There is also another model that is just as valid where you sell your value and develop relationships much much earlier. There is nothing wrong with that either. Discussion can happen as each model has pros and cons. Why argue? Tom there is no need to bait folks into fighting. How about everyone take a breath?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Andy Young Special user Jersey Shore, PA 813 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 17, 2022, Dannydoyle wrote: I am not arguing. Mindpro often talks about not working from a me prospective. It's ok if you miss the point of question. I don't want to elaborate any farther until Mindpro chimes in. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 17, 2022, Andy Young wrote: I am sorry Andy. I was not trying to say you were arguing. I was trying to bring us back in point is all. I see how you thought it was directed at you and it wasn’t. Once again my apologies.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Andy Young Special user Jersey Shore, PA 813 Posts |
No problem Danny. I wasn't upset. I just wanted to clarify incase I was coming off that way. I really have enjoyed the last couple threads.
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